What to do after you have defended yourself

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by skribs, Jan 31, 2018.

  1. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    Don't worry, I'm not in a situation where I need a lawyer, nor am I in a situation where I've needed to use my martial arts for self defense. However, let's say that was the case. Someone attacked me, and as a result of defending myself their arm is broken.

    Now, I don't want them to go to the ER and say they were mugged by some karate expert who broke their arm and tried to steal their wallet. However, I also don't want to call the police and say "yeah, I got in a fight and broke this dude's arm."

    Personally, I don't have a lawyer. I haven't really needed one. So what do I do in this situation?
     
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I did that once.

    I snuck off and pretended it never happened.
     
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  3. AlexanderZousky

    AlexanderZousky White Belt

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    Hi,
    I do not think that you might get in trouble because he attacked you first and you are just trying to defend yourself.
    I have been in many situations where i have to defend myself but I usually hold back a little and do not take it too seriously because you could injure them. The martial arts i have learn is mostly about locking instead of straight on fight to the death.
     
  4. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    I have some experience with this.

    4/4 walking away while the other guy sleeps it off or rethinks. Just continued on.

    It seems unlikely a potential mugger would want to deal with cops.
     
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  5. MA_Student

    MA_Student Black Belt

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    Best thing is to call the police and tell them you were attacked and explain how you had to defend yourself that way at least it's reported so there's no potential comeback for it
     
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  6. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    Flex. :D
     
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  7. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    It all depends on what you mean by attacked. The word attacked has a wide range of meaning. Breaking his arm doesn't change the correct course of action. If you were a store clerk and the assailant came in to rob you, the correct action is to call the police. It doesn't matter if he ran out the door with your cash, he is laying on the floor with a broken arm or laying there dead from a gun shot wound.
    A bar fight is a bit different.
     
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  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Dancing after a KO is a 15 yard penalty.

    I think I'm mixing sports on that, though.
     
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  9. wab25

    wab25 Blue Belt

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    Hypothetical situation: Frank pulls out a gun, points it at Bob and demands his wallet. On lookers call the police saying some guy has a gun and is robbing someone. Bob disarms Frank. The police show up... Now the police think the Bob is the bad guy, he has the gun.

    Same thing happens without the gun. Some guy attacks you, police are called on a guy assaulting someone else. You break his arm defending yourself. The police show up. Who was the aggressor? You are both going to point at the other guy.

    I tell people, if you defend yourself and injure the other guy... run away to safety. (you don't need him to pull the gun you didn't know he had or for his friends to show up) Then you call the police and state:
    1. I was attacked. (when, where, how and by who)
    2. I was afraid for my life.
    3. I defended myself, he may be hurt.
    4. I ran away, you can find me at this location.
    You need to frame the scene for the police who will show up. Most places will allow you to defend yourself with force, if you are afraid for your life. If you claim you were afraid, but you are still standing there flexing* when the cops show up... its not to convincing. A good piece of evidence that you were afraid for your life, is that you ran away from the danger, as soon as you could and you called the cops.

    If I defended myself with a gun, then I change number 3 above to: I shot him. Then I add step 5: I need to speak to my lawyer now.

    The idea is to be the first to report to the police. Report that you were attacked, you feared for your life, you took actions to defend yourself resulting in the injury to the other guy, and that you retreated to safety as soon as you could.

    Sure, there are a ton of cell phones around and someone probably has video. But, how long did it take for them to get the camera out and start recording? Its probably a good bet, that the missed the part where the bad guy pull a knife on a little kid. The also missed the part where you expertly kicked the knife out of the bad guy's hand. (this is probably what caught there attention) By the time there camera starts recording, they get you punching him in the face, then breaking his arm. If they then get video of you running away to safety, the have record of your calling right after to report things line up.

    * I realize that the flexing part was a joke... just helped to illustrate.
     
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  10. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Thinking the police are stupid is a good way to get yourself arrested. 'Framing' the scene for the police? Just don't. They are very good at finding out what happened. If you have fled the scene then try to set it up you are going to look guilty rather than looking as if you are in fear of your life because the scenario is you have injured and restrained the person attacking you using reasonable force, why do you need to run away?
     
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  11. wab25

    wab25 Blue Belt

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    I need to clarify. I did not mean, to re-create the scene or to change any details. If the other guy calls first and reports that you assaulted him, broke his arm and took the money he had in his hand, and the police show up to find you sitting at the bar... They start with the information the have. When people find out you train, the guy is going to press charges for excessive force. However, if you left the scene to safety and called in to report the guy attacking you, and tell them you hurt him because you were afraid... then what they are looking for when they show up is quite different.

    Also, by leaving, you don't allow him to pull the gun he had hidden or for his friends to show up. It also looks better for your case that you were afraid.

    Again, I am not saying to lie or change anything. I am saying get your side to the police as soon as is safe.
     
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  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Nobody said they were stupid. They are human, and have to start with the information they have in hand. If cops are called to an active shooter site, they have to assume the person they see with a gun is possibly the shooter. That translates to any situation. And if the first version they hear is a lie about what happened, that's all they know to start with. Best to get them some real information up front. Much easier to confirm a valid story than to try to disprove a lie (from the victim's viewpoint).
     
  13. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    I agree with Tez.

    Don’t over complicate it. Call the police they can figure out who was the aggressor.
     
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  14. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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  15. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I didn't say that anyone said the police are stupid, I said thinking the police are stupid is a good way to get yourself arrested. While I am retired now, when I was working if I turned up at the scene of a crime neither I nor my colleagues had preconceived ideas over who was 'guilty' and who wasn't based on what we saw when we arrived. We know better than most how things are almost never how they appear at first so give police officers some credit.
     
  16. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    The only thought that entered my mind was.....if it's right before shift change, can you wait a few minutes before you call? :)
     
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  17. wab25

    wab25 Blue Belt

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    Just some context for the list of actions that I mentioned earlier. I attended a gun disarming seminar a few years ago. As part of that seminar, they had invited a ranking police officer from somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area, who had responded many times to different shooting incidents. He was invited to share what to expect, when the LEOs show up after. Also invited was a prosecuting attorney, who had prosecuted many of this type of case, to talk about what they are looking for and how easily they could take what you said and make you look like the bad guy or at least used excessive force or had no need to respond like you did. There was also a defense attorney, who defended people in these types of cases... he was invited to share his perspective, what helps you out, what hurts you. After they all had made their presentations, a question was asked: How should we react and what should we say, because each person was looking at totally different things, with different goals in mind. The 3 of them had a discussion, and finally agreed on the list that I had listed. They all immediately agreed that you should remove yourself to safety first, and then call it in as soon as you are safe. The defense attorney wanted us to lead with "he attacked me." The prosecutor added the step about saying that you were in fear for your life. Both agreed you probably should not say much more, until you talked to your attorney. (I left the attorney part out as the discussion was about breaking an arm, knocking someone out... not killing them) The officer wanted to add the part about "I shot him." He felt that would help them figure out what happened quicker, and would not make it look like you were hiding anything. He thought that would help make it look like you were cooperating with them, instead making them have to put all the pieces together. (not that they couldn't do so in a few minutes on their own) The lawyers agreed with him, that you should say that, agreeing that it made you look like you were cooperating and at the same time not incriminating yourself. I continue to share that sequence with folks, because it came from a discussion between the different professionals that are involved, and from people in those professions who had real world experience in handling these situations. Anyway, that was their advice that I pass along.
     
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  18. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Paragraphs are very useful.

    You were on a seminar, you got what you paid for, doesn't mean it's all wisdom. Rather than 'ranking' try a rank and file police officer, once you involve lawyers things always get complicated. I assume they were paid handsomely for talking at the seminar so they aren't going to minimise their involvement. To be honest though your seminar sounded like a law lecture rather than a useful thing to know after you fend off an attack.

    Incidentally did the word 'adrenaline' come up anywhere here?
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I got into a fight in Sheng Yang, China north train station. When 3 Chinese policemen came, I told them that this guy and I got into argument. Our body tangled together, we both lost balance and fell. This guy's head hit on the hard ground. I didn't throw any punches. It was an accident. Those Chinese policemen let me go.

    IMO, the throwing art has advantage over the striking art in public self-defense. Lost balance is always a good excuse for your opponent's body injury.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  20. wab25

    wab25 Blue Belt

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    The officer was a rank and file officer. He was not fresh out of the academy. He had performed well enough, long enough to be promoted, but was not yet flying a desk. (sorry, I don't know the ranking system for police) His qualification for his part of the presentation was that he personally responds to these situations... and had already responded to quite a few.

    Once you shoot someone in self defense, there is a good chance lawyers will be involved. Not always... but if I had to bet...

    I am not sure of the monetary arrangement. They were certainly friends with the Sensei who organized the event, and they were very familiar with our system and training. They could have participated out of the goodness of their hearts or been paid... I don't know. It would not have been too much money though as I don't believe there was a large fee for the event.

    I figure it might be worth it to know what to expect afterwards. Understanding the laws involved might come in handy as well. We had 8 hours of training, about an hour and a half talking with the lawyers and officer about this stuff.

    Quite a bit actually. But, this thread was more on what to do... I took that to be "how not to end up in jail the next day."

    Anyway... what is it specifically that you object to, in what I suggested?
    1. Leave the scene, to a safe location?
    2. Call the police once safe?
    3. Tell the police the other guy attacked you?
    4. Tell the police you were afraid for your life?
    5. Tell the police that you shot / injured the other guy?
    6. Tell them you need to speak to your attorney?
    Which part do you object to? If I am telling people something wrong here, can you point it out and why?

    I have run this past many different LEOs in different counties and states, talked to police, sheriffs and FBI agents. In my experience, they all felt this was solid advice and encouraged me to continue giving it. If I could better my advice... I am all ears. What should I add, remove or change?
     
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