"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?

[Hanzou]

When its all said and done it comes down to Don't get raging drunk on your wedding celebration and assault cab drivers but if you do and the police show up don't hit them either. It generally doesn't work out well for you one way or another.

Yeah, I feel bad for the guy's family, but holy ****, he could have easily killed that cop. I think the reports were that the cop had multiple facial fractures.

 

[Buka]

Worked out this morning. Now I'm off to be a police officer.

And if this happens to me -

Their friend casually strolls up behind you, lifts out your gun and puts it to the back of your head.

I'm pretty sure one of the other cops will just shoot it out of their hand.

 

[CB Jones]

I'm pretty sure one of the other cops will just shoot it out of their hand

From the hip just like the Lone Ranger

 

[dvcochran]

No. If they want great but not necessary



To clarify: The video is an example of poor and/or wrong defensive tactics and handcuffing. He doesn’t need BJJ he just needs to use proper tactics

Like many videos, I wish we had seen what led up to where this video started. From what we see, no good protocol was followed. It appeared to be a big enough city that backup should have been available, however I remember more than a few calls where I could not get backup at all or soon enough. It is a tough spot when you know a camera is on you.
It looked like he was turning to pin the guys head but never finished. Hard to say what was going through the officer mind at the time. It was a bigger guy with those arms that are hard to get cuffed behind the back especially when they are struggling. I was never a fan of going to the ground without some kind of submission planned. I think the officer panicked, ran out of gas, and apparently did not have the skills required for the perp. A very sad video.
Back when I taught defensive tactics I stressed that it is a literal term that is made possible by offense. All the queue's, verbal, posture, timing, common sense, tactic, have to be taught. Sad that it takes something like this but I hope there was a big spike in training and participation from the other officers in that city.

 

[pdg]

Worked out this morning. Now I'm off to be a police officer.

And if this happens to me -

Their friend casually strolls up behind you, lifts out your gun and puts it to the back of your head.

I'm pretty sure one of the other cops will just shoot it out of their hand.

Lucky enough to have onsite backup

 

[JR 137]

You would probably learn a double leg, single leg and knee knock to a functional level more quickly than just about any other throw.

Which means you could be wrestling people on to their back more quickly than just about any other art.

But to face a legit wrestler is a different prospect. And yes I have seen them toy with legit MMAers.

We’d teach low single and double leg (where you shoot in/penetration step vs still standing) takedown; duck-under and head & arm throw from tie up; switch, sit-out-turn-in, and stand-up from bottom; and half-Nelson and bars from top. All fundamental, simple, and effective. Once they got good at those, either we’d teach them more, or they’d figure out more by having stuff done to them.

Using just those to a good level will make you pretty competitive.

As far as wrestlers mopping the mat with MMAers, it could happen the other way around under MMA rules.

Edit: What’s a “knee knock?”

 

[drop bear]

We’d teach low single and double leg (where you shoot in/penetration step vs still standing) takedown; duck-under and head & arm throw from tie up; switch, sit-out-turn-in, and stand-up from bottom; and half-Nelson and bars from top. All fundamental, simple, and effective. Once they got good at those, either we’d teach them more, or they’d figure out more by having stuff done to them.

Using just those to a good level will make you pretty competitive.

As far as wrestlers mopping the mat with MMAers, it could happen the other way around under MMA rules.

Edit: What’s a “knee knock?”

I was thinking as compared to a hip throw or something. You are proficient a lot quicker.

Take the back give the knee a tap and ride the guy in to the deck.

 

[drop bear]

Of course, Im not saying bash his head in. But a few well-placed strikes may have been the motivation needed for the guy to stop resisting. But honestly, at this point, we are just armchair quarterbacking because its over.

The strike started him resisting.

 

[drop bear]

Fair enough. Also I’m not meaning straight arm. I don’t know the nomenclature. I’m talking keeping the arm bent and using the bent arm for leverage to force him over onto his stomach.

But he still should have kept control of the arm and kept trying to force him to a prone position instead of letting go and moving to the head.

Hammer lock or reinforced under hook?

 

[ballen0351]

The strike started him resisting.

He was resisting the whole time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Off the bat, wrestling will teach a few takedowns/throws, sprawling, a few reversals and escapes, and a few pinning combinations.

Learning them is easy. Actually using them and not getting beat while trying is the tricky part. Those handful of moves you learn your first few months (more like your first 2 months) could be about 90% of what you’ll always use.

I tried to use phrasing to be clear, because there’s a confounding issue with training a sport: we tend to measure ability to use it against someone else in the sport. Take that same new wrestler, teach them those same starting moves. How quickly could they develop the skill necessary to use them on someone untrained? Of course, that comes somewhat quicker than their ability to use them in wrestling competition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That arm bar doesn't exactly work great. That is why BJJ cop uses the knee ride. I used the hammer lock. But I have always found that a really hard way to roll a guy.

Yeah, unless there’s some momentum in it (using it “on the bounce” after a takedown/throw), you lose the ability to control the shoulder, which you need in order to get the body to turn over.

 

[JR 137]

I tried to use phrasing to be clear, because there’s a confounding issue with training a sport: we tend to measure ability to use it against someone else in the sport. Take that same new wrestler, teach them those same starting moves. How quickly could they develop the skill necessary to use them on someone untrained? Of course, that comes somewhat quicker than their ability to use them in wrestling competition.

You reminded me of when we used to do a 2-3 week unit of wrestling in high school (back when PE wasn’t co-ed). The teacher would ask me to teach a few basics. I taught single and double leg takedown, and a few other basics.

What a f’in $hit show. I’m genuinely laughing typing this remembering the circus. And honestly, it was pretty hard wrestling against a lot of the guys who didn’t know anything. Not the wimpy kids, but the strong kids who weren’t athletic. You’d get hurt trying to not hurt them. In a lot of ways it was easier wrestling guys with experience because they’d do things to get themselves out of trouble before they were in trouble, whereas the guys who didn’t know what was coming would basically panic hold on for dear life. They’d grab you at all weird angles and places and wouldn’t let go. For example, if you shot a low single leg takedown against a guy who knows what he’s doing, he’ll sprawl; if he doesn’t time it right he’ll turn to go to his stomach rather than his back; stuff like that. The untrained guys would try to grab around your neck like they were unknowingly doing a front guillotine choke and flop on their back taking you with them. It was like getting Jake “The Snake” Roberts’s DDT. They couldn’t figure out why those of us who wrestled hated wrestling with them. Or we’d throw them and end up knocking the wind out of them because they had no clue what was coming nor how to fall, then they’d get all pissed and want to fight after they caught their breath.

But the circus part...
It always turned into WWF stuff. One guy would manage to get another guy on his back, then one of the spectators would run in and drop an elbow. Guys were trying to pull off WWF suplexes and pile drivers, stuff like that. What was supposed to be a 2-3 week unit usually lasted 2-3 classes tops because the teacher got tired of it. My favorite one was a guy stood up on a table and Superfly Snuka’ed a guy who was wrestling another guy. One guy Hulk Hogan leg dropping a guy who had another guy on his back was pretty good too.

Yup. Only way to describe it was a f’in $hit show. Hilarious to everyone but the teacher. Amazing how no one got seriously hurt.

Thanks for the jogging my memory. It’s been hard to type this while I’m laughing. My daughter just asked my wife what I’m laughing about.

 

[drop bear]

He was resisting the whole time.

He jumped up and wacked the cop after he got knee dropped on.

 

[ballen0351]

He jumped up and wacked the cop after he got knee dropped on.

They were already fighting before that. The cop didnt just walk up to the guy already laying on the ground. According to the officers statements during the investigation he approached the firefighter told him he was under arrest. He tried to cuff him standing they started struggling and the officer took him down. That's when the video starts. The firefighter was resisting the entire time.

So like I said "if" you are going to strike someone then strike them full force and mean it. I remember my first defensive tactics instructor in the police academy use to say "If they shake your tree give them ALL your peaches" meaning if your going to fight them dont go half hearted about it. go hard or dont go.

 

[lklawson]

Surely this is a good case for biometric triggers?

That way, if the suspect gets your gun all they've gained is a funny shaped knuckleduster...

Biometrics is probably 25-50 years away from being reliable enough for a life-or-death, literally instant, 100% reliable solution. Until then, it is a liability.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Hanzou]

Definitely see the wrist grab attempts in this video (20 sec mark). A kimura lock or at least some sort of 2 on 1 grip would have done wonders here. I don't know why that cop thought he could control this guy's wrist with one hand.

 

[lklawson]

I might be wrong, but I read into that statement that if a biometric trigger control was reliable you would use it.

That's a start if so.

Think about it - it needn't be biometric, that was just one option. Could be RFID, or NFC, or similar.

Could be restricted to one user, or "any authorised". You could restrict the operation to people who are trained in it's use, or those above a certain grade, or those in specialist units - whatever.

Yeah ok, it would be 'hackable' (because that's always brought up sometime with any tech), but it's a whole lot better than "I hope I can stop him grabbing my gun".

Much the same issues as biometric with some extra problems along the way.

Think of it from a combination of an Access Security perspective (think military grade Top Secret rooms, not your smart phone) and combine that with an absolute requirement of 100% up time, 100% correct recognition & differentiation, and (literally) millisecond processing time requirements. There is no technology on the the market that can fulfill the actual requirements and even the stuff that DARPA admits to working on 1) won't be theoretically available for decades and 2) still can't really fill the requirements.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[pdg]

Biometrics is probably 25-50 years away from being reliable enough for a life-or-death, literally instant, 100% reliable solution. Until then, it is a liability.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I think 25-50 years away is a huge stretch.

More like 5-10, if that long.

Much the same issues as biometric with some extra problems along the way.

Think of it from a combination of an Access Security perspective (think military grade Top Secret rooms, not your smart phone) and combine that with an absolute requirement of 100% up time, 100% correct recognition & differentiation, and (literally) millisecond processing time requirements. There is no technology on the the market that can fulfill the actual requirements and even the stuff that DARPA admits to working on 1) won't be theoretically available for decades and 2) still can't really fill the requirements.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

In response to the relevant portion of both posts - there exists not an analogue firearm that is 100% reliable right now, so using 100% as an absolute requirement is simply never possible.


As to processing speed, a simple ID check of the type required can happen (with existing tech) faster than you can pull a trigger anyway, so speed is really not the limiting factor.

Also your second message refers to "technology on the market" - I was never intending to mean introduction next Tuesday...


Of course, the one absolutely guaranteed way to stop all unlawful shootings is to uninvent firearms

 

[ballen0351]

Definitely see the wrist grab attempts in this video (20 sec mark). A kimura lock or at least some sort of 2 on 1 grip would have done wonders here. I don't know why that cop thought he could control this guy's wrist with one hand.

It looked like he was trying to either get his radio or cuffs with his other hand or something like that. Or he really just didnt know what to do.