Ephedra Debate - Was Re: Creatine, to take or not to take

[Bagatha]

Some people dont think its very good. Interesting comments:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20754&highlight=cell+tech

I have never tried it so I hold no opinion.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by JDenz
Bottom line weather or not supplements are healthy I will argue with anyone anytime that most of them are. There are excetions and there are always rip offs (I am telling you Cell-Tech is the best creatine on the market that I have tried. Anyway If you want to be at the highestlevels ofa sport you need suplimentation.

There is nothing magical about Cell-Tech. The key ingredients are : 10 g Creatine Monohydrate and
75 g (Carbohydrates from Dextrose)

You are just over paying for the dextrose, which is glucose.

You can just get cheap creatine and dextrose and just mix them in the same amount. The dextrose/glucose increase the absorption of creatine. Simple as that.

Lots of people are already going the cheaper route.


If you want research references:

Creatine-dextrose and protein-dextrose induce similar strength gains during training

MARK A. TARNOPOLSKY; GIANNI PARISE; NICHOLAS J. YARDLEY; CRAIG S. BALLANTYNE; SONNY OLATUNJI; STUART M. PHILLIPS

Departments of Medicine (Neurology and Neurological Rehabilitation) and Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA

MEDICINE AND SCIENCE IN SPORTS AND EXERCISE 2001;33:2044-2052

 

[JDenz]

I know whats in it i have made the mixture myself and there are off brands with the same ingrediants but nothing else gives me the same results.

 

[jfarnsworth]

I have to agree. Personally I've used two other types of creatine monohydrate and didn't get the performance that I did from cell-tech. The grape and fruit punch tasted the best so I stuck with it.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by JDenz
Anyway If you want to be at the highestlevels ofa sport you need suplimentation.

Work hard, work hard, and work harder still. And then, have a genetics that helps in that sport. Supplimentation is not a must.

 

[cassidy]

To be at the highest level of a sport yes you do. Show me one ufc,nfl ,or MLB player who doesn't supplement let alone use steroids.

 

[JDenz]

I defintly second that. In fact I would be surprised if you found a state champ in wrestling or high level highschool kid in any of the major sports on supplements.
This argument of what is good for you and what isn't good for you is never going to be won because there are creditabl sources on each side saying two diffrent things. Bottom line scientists and doctors are split on there feelings of the benifit/risk scale. Anyone that is not arguing to argue can see that. But whatever side of the fence that you are on you have to admit that supplements do work.

 

[Nightingale]

well, there are studies on both sides for creatine. my doctor says it is probably fairly safe if used properly under a doctor's supervision and in the proper dosages. She said that the directions printed on the containers usually are incorrect, so check with a doctor about proper dosage because you have to take your body weight and stuff into account.

However, I have not seen any reputable studies that say ephedra/ephedrine is safe...even though I repeatedly asked Cassidy for some. He said he was going to find them, but never returned with any information. (reputable studies are those done by a researcher that is affilliated with a legitimate medical hospital or organization, who has nothing to gain from the research other than scientific knowledge...this means that they are not selling it, or being paid for their statements by the companies that make the drugs)

Cassidy, if you've found the info, I would really like to be able to look it over.

-N-

 

[cassidy]

Just for those of you who never read this article I wrote on ephedra a while back.....just some food for thought.

Facts about Ephedra - the FDA and the Future of "Fat Loss"
By Terry Giles


By all accounts, fat loss, dieting and weight-loss is one of the biggest categories in all of nutritional supplement land. People longing to lose fat and shape up drive over 5 billion dollars in product sales a year. That's a lot of money. Take a look around you, America is fat, obese and overweight people standing on every corner eating doughnuts and waiting in line at fast food drive-ins in search of their next meal. These people, through lack of understanding of basic nutritional principles are perpetuating their weight problems and continuing to get fatter.

this is really long so probably three more posts. Give me 15 more minutes

 

[cassidy]

Enter the nutritional supplement companies, marketing fat loss and weight-loss products in magazines, on infomercials, and even on talk shows with the host touting the benefits of one of literally hundreds of weight-loss products and diet fads on the market. Few if any succeed, or even try for that matter, to educate the overweight population on proper nutrition and the need for a simple understanding of how to eat - in order to lose weight and keep it off. I have, as I have mentioned before, been in this industry for over twenty years and I have been directly involved in the development of some of the fastest selling and hottest fat loss and weight-loss products ever formulated. I have spent hundreds of hours in research and field-testing developing formulations that worked and offered good results to the end user. I have always been an advocate of educating the consumer on proper nutritional guidance as part of a fat loss or weight-loss program, so they would experience results and be able to better maintain their success

 

[cassidy]

Thermogenic formulas and fat loss products have advanced over the years and become better and more effective as collective research studies and advancements in the understanding of human metabolism have progressed. The "fat burners" of yesterday paved the road for the thermogenic support and fat loss catalysts on the market today. One of the most positive developments in research technology for fat loss has circled around the use of ephedrine alkaloids in fat loss and weight-loss products. There has been very substantial research done addressing the effects of ephedrine alkaloids and other nutrients and their collective use in promoting fat loss, specifically the mixture of caffeine and ephedrine alkaloids.

 

[cassidy]

Bodybuilders have always had a better understanding of nutrition and how to maximize lean mass and lower body-fat.


With the stage set, look at the bodybuilding culture; we have understood more about diet, nutrition and fat loss than most doctors and nutritionists for years. We live, eat and sleep lean mass and low body-fat. Our physiques have dictated that we understand and practice good sound nutritional principles to achieve the best possible physical appearance. The practice of small meals eaten throughout the day is no mystery to us. We understand the physiology behind eating a balance of protein, fat and carbs and not counting calories as it relates to weight-loss. So the introduction of fat burners a decade ago was not as earth moving to us as to the general public as a whole.

 

[cassidy]

The evolution of fat burners into the new thermogenics over the past few years have been a bit more relative to our lifestyle and supportive of us reaching our ultimate goals. Increased thermogenesis and enhanced metabolism were important advancements in fat loss. More precisely, the latest advancement in fat loss technology - the new Thermometabolic compounds - speak directly to the needs of the athlete and bodybuilder. Promoting thermogenesis and enhanced metabolism with support components formulated to speak directly to the needs of the athlete. Specific neurotransmitters, advanced formulations harnessing the antioxidant capacity of specific nutrients and programmed release patterns, further enhancing the effects of metabolic support and thermogenic increase.
Is it accurate to say Ephedra is dangerous? This is what the many opponents of ephedra want you to believe, along with pushing ephedra based products to be removed from the marketplace. Touting high numbers of illnesses, even death supposedly related to the use of ephedra based products.

 

[cassidy]

Granted that the misuse of ephedra based products can be unhealthy and even dangerous, but following the suggested use set forth by responsible manufacturers adhering to the national standards of use set forth for their goods is not. So to make a blanket statement as to the safety of ephedrine alkaloids and their use in nutritional supplements is misleading and actually wrong. Yet headlines like these have poured out of the media in reference to the use of ephedra based products and their safety. I have read so many articles written on the horrors of ephedra use that I couldn't just sit back and not address the issue at least as how it pertains to the sports nutrition industry in my view point. Most of these articles state that there are over 2 billion doses of ephedrine alkaloid based products consumed each year. This is probably a fairly accurate accounting and it represents a considerable amount of cash money.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
well, there are studies on both sides for creatine. my doctor says it is probably fairly safe if used properly under a doctor's supervision and in the proper dosages. She said that the directions printed on the containers usually are incorrect, so check with a doctor about proper dosage because you have to take your body weight and stuff into account.

Believing every word that comes from your Doctor's mouth is just
as dangerous as overdosing on ephedrine. They are led by what
the AMA tells them. And history is full of times when doctors were
wrong. Most Doctors will not give a positive comment about
Chiropractors or Acupuncture (they take patients, e.g. money
away from them) but that doesn't mean they're not successful
at treating certain things.

Me personally, I take ephedrine free supplements, always. But
there's a lot of heart problems in my family's history, and I don't
want to risk it.

Originally posted by nightingale8472
However, I have not seen any reputable studies that say ephedra/ephedrine is safe...even though I repeatedly asked Cassidy for some. He said he was going to find them, but never returned with any information. (reputable studies are those done by a researcher that is affilliated with a legitimate medical hospital or organization, who has nothing to gain from the research other than scientific knowledge...this means that they are not selling it, or being paid for their statements by the companies that make the drugs)

That's because it's illegal. You can't publish ANY studies that give
claim medical results, unless approved by the FDA. I used to work
for a company that made reishi mushroom capsules. You wouldn't
believe that literal piles of research documentation they had from
U.S. University studies, and independant labs outside of the U.S.
But none of them could be put on the website .


JDenz,

I played sports in H.S. .. a boat load of them were on
supplements.

 

[cassidy]

These articles go on to report that of those 2 billion doses, there have been more than 800 AERs (adverse event reports - reports of individuals who have had any type of adverse health reaction while consuming a particular product) filed in relation to ephedra based products, with some of those cases resulting in death. Pretty horrifying stuff if you just look at the surface (as most of these articles do). What these articles fail to report are the complete facts - they report numbers that do not report the facts. The numbers are incomplete and inaccurate. Fact of the matter is these numbers are terribly inaccurate - actually down right wrong. One report goes as far as to state " while the agency (referring to the FDA) won't verify how many people died as a result of taking the herbal stimulant (ephedra), used chiefly to promote weight loss, earlier reports put the number at about 30. A source with the latest cases, who asked not to be identified, says they include an additional 10 deaths".

 

[cassidy]

I would speculate that the reason this person didn't want to be named is simply because the GAO (United States General Accounting Office) stated in their report issued to the Chairman and Ranking Minority Member, Committee on Science and the House of Representatives (titled Uncertainties in Analyses Underlying FDA's Proposed Rule on Ephedrine Alkaloids) that in a random sampling of 92 out of 864 AERs that the FDA had compiled, 39 percent lacked information on the amount of product (ephedra) consumed, 41 percent lacked information of the frequency of use and 28 percent lacked information as to the length of time the product was used. Additionally, a total of 45 percent of the AERs lacked information on either dose, frequency, or duration of use and 24 percent lacked information in all three categories. A whopping 62 percent of the AERs randomly sampled by the GAO did not contain medical records, which are vital in determining potential underlying conditions that might have caused the adverse reaction (rather than just assuming ingestion of dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids caused the problem).

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by cassidy
These people, through lack of understanding of basic nutritional principles are perpetuating their weight problems and continuing to get fatter.

Don't want to be rude here, but that's not it. I wish it were
that simple.

 

[cassidy]

The FDA used only 13 AERs to set a dose and duration level for products containing ephedrine alkaloids. The report from the GOA states, "while FDA used these 13 AERs to set a dosing level, the agency did not perform a casual analysis to determine whether the reported events (referring to the reported reactions to ephedra) were, in fact, caused by the ingestion of dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids. Our review of these 13 AERs found numerous problems that raise questions about the casual relationship between ingestion of the implicated product (ephedra) and the adverse events (reactions) observed". The report goes on to list that three of the AERs included physician reports that stated the cause of the event was not related to a dietary supplement. Three of the AERs were individuals reporting adverse events that they had reported prior to using and after ceasing to use ephedra based products - simply meaning three of the reports were filed by people who had similar problems even before ever using an ephedra based product and went on to have that same problem even after stopping the use of any such product. One of the 13 AERs did not have any medical records at all.
kirk and everybody hold off I'm not done thank nightingale

 

[cassidy]

Some of the "reported" deaths related to use of ephedrine alkaloid products included the report of a man who shot himself. Also included in the "death toll" of ephedra-based products was a woman whose blood alcohol level was twice the legal limit and who died of a skull fracture after driving into a tree at 90 mph. Another included a man that died of environmental hypothermia.

So to say the FDA's fact finding mission and accounting was inaccurate would probably be one of the biggest understatements of the century. The GOA completed and made public its complete report in early August 1999 concluding that the FDA did not have sufficient scientific basis for the proposals it set forth with regards to products containing ephedrine alkaloids. In addition to articles and reporters making inaccurate and misleading statements about deaths and injury caused by ephedra based products, they also make false and misleading statements about the regulation of nutritional supplements, stating the FDA has no control over the sale and manufacture of these items. This is equally as false as the references to numbers of actual AERs that involve ephedrine alkaloids.