Does anyone seriously use chops?

[Tony Dismukes]

I use knifehands/hammerfists/forearm strikes sometimes, but against an opponent using a good boxing or Muay Thai structure I find there are fewer opportunities to land them.

I don't use open pam strikes so much because I have congenital deformities in both hands which make it anatomically impossible for me to keep all my fingers together with my hand all the way open. That means my fingers would be at extra risk of getting messed up if I don't place my open hand strike perfectly.

I actually prefer forearm strikes to knife hands, but they use a slightly different vector of force and have different openings, so one isn't really a substitute for the other.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

"Proper slaps are pretty vicious. Broke a guy's jaw and knocked him down by slapping him...."-Elder999
You can easily break someone's neck with a chop, a chop to the throat, chop to the bridge of the nose, chop to the temple, break a rib with a chop.
A slap to both ears can cause serious damage as well. The chop has a longer reach then say a forearm or a fist that is why in Baguazhang we use open hands because in olden days the Baguazhang practitioner would be using knives so a chop was actually a chop a finger jab was a knife thrust. A slap simply means to hit open hand as I said if you train say like Iron palm then the damage is greater but you have to condition the hand. know the correct body mechanics, right focus. A palm strike can generate a lot of power.

There are 3 fundamental ways of knocking out an opponent:

• Deliver a shock to the brain (example: strike the jaw or temple)
• Choke off the blood flow to the brain (example: constrict the carotid artery)
• Restrict breathing, limiting oxygen to the brain (example: constrict the windpipe)

Again, it may indeed be possible to break someone's jaw with a slap. I've just never personally witnessed it firsthand. What I have witnessed firsthand, however (and in several cases), are people getting their jaws broken by a nice clean hook punch, especially a power hook. I've seen people get KO'd with a slap to the jaw or ear, but mostly because of shock to the brain like I mentioned before. I've actually seen someone's whole skull get cracked/crushed by a power hook, though. Not just their jaw, but their whole skull. Now someone had asked earlier about specific target areas. You want to aim for the carotid artery on the side of the neck just below the ear if you can. This will KO the opponent instantly, as it actually restricts oxygen to the brain. If in doubt though, just aim for the ear or temple. That will jar their brain and likely still lead to a KO as an end result. I personally don't think it's easy to break someone's neck with a chop. Not saying you can't, just that it's not easily done. When going for a KO chop, again it's probably best to aim for either the carotid artery on the side of the neck, or the windpipe in front. That's where you want to aim those chops at if you want to cut off the air supply and restrict the blood flow, thus restricting oxygen to the brain. But hey, slapping both ears simultaneously could work too I suppose, at the risk of leaving one's guard open. I don't advocate double-attacking hands unless I have to. That's too extreme Yang for my taste. I prefer to have a balance of Yin too, usually keeping one hand back to protect my guard when I attack, just in case the opponent counters. Yin-Yang is the concept we're shooting for, not extreme Yang or extreme Yin, that's something different entirely. Again with a regular chop using your hand, the reverberation goes to your wrist. This can cause micro-fractures and carpal tunnel syndrome. To compensate for this, people who chop with their hands will often bend their hands for a tighter chop like you said. I know all about that (After trying and failing for most of my life, this year I finally broke a non-rigged red house brick with a downward hammer chop, my first brick breaking experience ever lol). It definitely wasn't easy, so I'm guessing that breaking someone's neck would probably be pretty hard. But of course, Iron Palm practitioners who condition their hands (purposely causing micro-fractures which heal to strengthen the hands) might say it's easy since that's what they actually train so long to do. As for myself, however, I still prefer the devastating forearm chop. Imagine using a sideways hand chop to the side of the opponent's neck, striking that carotid artery. Oh yeah, he's going down. But now imagine doing that same thing but instead of using just your hand, you're using your forearm which does not have a hinge or anywhere for those reverberations to go. Instead, all that energy is going right back into the opponent. Blam! Now that's more likely to get the job done. Instead of catching him in the neck with your hand, you're using your whole arm. This means more power, with less injury to oneself. But I digress, yet again. To each their own. Anyone who is willing to break bricks with their hands is not someone I'd want to get throat chopped by, that's for sure lol. So I guess it just depends on what you're trying to master.

 

[oaktree]

How internal stylist throw a chop, punch, or forearm strike there is no difference.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

How internal stylist throw a chop, punch, or forearm strike there is no difference.

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying there. Could you clarify? Thanks.

Also, most people generally say I practice an "external" style. But I'm also under the impression that there really isn't much difference between internal and external styles, they just follow a different order of operations. Internal styles develop inner-power (chi flow) first, then they develop external power later on. Whereas the external styles develop the hard body and external power first, then they develop internal power later on. My style does have both external and internal elements involved in it. So how can you tell the difference? What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You want to aim for the carotid artery on the side of the neck just below the ear if you can. This will KO the opponent instantly, as it actually restricts oxygen to the brain

A KO from a strike to the neck occurs due to shock to the nerves. Any effect on blood flow is momentary and only affects one side anyway. Also it takes at least a few seconds for restriction of blood flow to cause unconsciousness.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

A KO from a strike to the neck occurs due to shock to the nerves. Any effect on blood flow is momentary and only affects one side anyway. Also it takes at least a few seconds for restriction of blood flow to cause unconsciousness.

Good tea... Yummy, thank you.

 

[elder999]

There are 3 fundamental ways of knocking out an opponent:

• Deliver a shock to the brain (example: strike the jaw or temple)
• Choke off the blood flow to the brain (example: constrict the carotid artery)
• Restrict breathing, limiting oxygen to the brain (example: constrict the windpipe)

Again, it may indeed be possible to break someone's jaw with a slap. I've just never personally witnessed it firsthand. What I have witnessed firsthand, however (and in several cases), are people getting their jaws broken by a nice clean hook punch, especially a power hook. I've seen people get KO'd with a slap to the jaw or ear, but mostly because of shock to the brain like I mentioned before. I've actually seen someone's whole skull get cracked/crushed by a power hook, though. Not just their jaw, but their whole skull. Now someone had asked earlier about specific target areas. You want to aim for the carotid artery on the side of the neck just below the ear if you can. This will KO the opponent instantly, as it actually restricts oxygen to the brain. If in doubt though, just aim for the ear or temple. That will jar their brain and likely still lead to a KO as an end result. I personally don't think it's easy to break someone's neck with a chop. Not saying you can't, just that it's not easily done. When going for a KO chop, again it's probably best to aim for either the carotid artery on the side of the neck, or the windpipe in front. That's where you want to aim those chops at if you want to cut off the air supply and restrict the blood flow, thus restricting oxygen to the brain. But hey, slapping both ears simultaneously could work too I suppose, at the risk of leaving one's guard open. I don't advocate double-attacking hands unless I have to. That's too extreme Yang for my taste. I prefer to have a balance of Yin too, usually keeping one hand back to protect my guard when I attack, just in case the opponent counters. Yin-Yang is the concept we're shooting for, not extreme Yang or extreme Yin, that's something different entirely. Again with a regular chop using your hand, the reverberation goes to your wrist. This can cause micro-fractures and carpal tunnel syndrome. To compensate for this, people who chop with their hands will often turn their hands for a tighter chop like you said. I know all about that (After trying and failing for most of my life, this year I finally broke a non-rigged red house brick with a downward hammer chop, my first brick breaking experience ever lol). It definitely wasn't easy, so I'm guessing that breaking someone's neck would probably be pretty hard. But of course, Iron Palm practitioners who condition their hands (purposely causing micro-fractures which heal to strengthen the hands) might say it's easy since that's what they actually train so long to do. As for myself, however, I still prefer the devastating forearm chop. Imagine using a sideways hand chop to the side of the opponent's neck, striking that carotid artery. Oh yeah, he's going down. But now imagine doing that same thing but instead of using just your hand, you're using your forearm which does not have a hinge or anywhere for those reverberations to go. Instead, all that energy is going right back into the opponent. Blam! Now that's more likely to get the job done. Instead of catching him in the neck with your hand, you're using your whole arm. This means more power, with less injury to oneself. But I digress, yet again. To each their own. Anyone who is willing to break bricks with their hands is not someone I'd want to get throat chopped by, that's for sure lol. So I guess it just depends on what you're trying to master.

This was just another post fulla fail to wake up to.....

For starters:

There are 3 fundamental ways of knocking out an opponent:

• Deliver a shock to the brain (example: strike the jaw or temple)
• Choke off the blood flow to the brain (example: constrict the carotid artery)
• Restrict breathing, limiting oxygen to the brain (example: constrict the windpipe

Which of these categories do nerve strikes, like that to the brachial plexus cover?

Never mind, I'll answer: all of them, and none of them.

When we strike the brachial plexus sharply with a knife hand, hand blade, shuto-the edge of the friggin hand(though you can do it with the forearm, or a hammerfist) and knock someone out, what we are seeing is an autonomic response. Baroreceptors in the neck-nerves that help the brain and body gauge and control blood pressure-interpret the strike as extremely high blood pressure. This causes vasodilation: the veins and arteries in the body widen to lower the blood pressure and allow more flow, but the blood pressure isn't actually high enough for that response, and blood flow to brain actually lowers, causing the person to pass out. So, in this case, you can say that it's a "shock to the brain," and "choke off of flow to the brain," and "limiting oxygen to the brain," but it's really none of those...and all of them.Other nerves cause similar responses for similar reasons.

As for the gobbledygook about iron palm practitioners, I'll leave that to @DaleDugas to answer or ignore, and just leave this: a properly trained person can deliver a slap to a concrete slab (or several pavers) stood on end, and break it ( or them). Such a person, with proper follow through, will knock a person down and break their jaw almost every time they hit someone like that. Most of them don't bother posting on YouTube, btw.....

EDIT @Tony Dismukes beat me to it with a bit of brevity....

 

[Bill Mattocks]

There are a lot of replies here. I didn't read them all, but it seems most are in agreement that 'chops' are useful if not essential.

My opinion is that one should learn to strike with every part of the body that supports striking. Palm strikes, edge of hand, fingers, fists, not to mention the more subtle striking surfaces such as the natural hook at the base of the thumb at the wrist and the hammer fist (both for hitting and for trapping). Ichi knuckles, fingertip strikes, thumb-knuckle strikes, etc, etc, etc.

Why leave 90% of your tools at home? Most of us have two hands. Those hands are amazingly well-adapted tools for a huge variety of purposes. Learn to use them and you'll be glad you did.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

This was just another post fulla fail to wake up to.....

For starters:

Which of these categories do nerve strikes, like that to the brachial plexus cover?

Never mind, I'll answer: all of them, and none of them.

When we strike the brachial plexus sharply with a knife hand, hand blade, shuto-the edge of the friggin hand(though you can do it with the forearm, or a hammerfist) and knock someone out, what we are seeing is an autonomic response. Baroreceptors in the neck-nerves that help the brain and body gauge and control blood pressure-interpret the strike as extremely high blood pressure. This causes vasodilation: the veins and arteries in the body widen to lower the blood pressure and allow more flow, but the blood pressure isn't actually high enough for that response, and blood flow to brain actually lowers, causing the person to pass out. So, in this case, you can say that it's a "shock to the brain," and "choke off of flow to the brain," and "limiting oxygen to the brain," but it's really none of those...and all of them.Other nerves cause similar responses for similar reasons.

As for the gobbledygook about iron palm practitioners, I'll leave that to @DaleDugas to answer or ignore, and just leave this: a properly trained person can deliver a slap to a concrete slab (or several pavers) stood on end, and break it ( or them). Such a person, with proper follow through, will knock a person down and break their jaw almost every time they hit someone like that. Most of them don't bother posting on YouTube, btw.....

EDIT @Tony Dismukes beat me to it with a bit of brevity....

So the brachial plexus, that's the collarbone area right? That's another good target area. Glad you mentioned it.

And thank you for clarifying how the nerve process and blood flow actually works during a knockout. I wasn't delving that deeply into it, but still, it's good to know. So what you're saying then is that the KO isn't really caused by one overall factor, but by a chain reaction of different factors all combined to produce the KO's we see. That's actually pretty cool. I always knew it worked, just wasn't 100% knowledgeable on "how" it worked. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Learning the target area is half the training. The other half is learning how to deliver it effectively. After 'punch hard' (which is good), there is a whole world of learning the appropriate amount of pressure, power, speed, angle, etc, to delivering a strike with other parts of the hands (and body).

A case in point is the natural hook at the base of the thumb when you make a fist. It can be applied to the rear of the base of the skull in a circular motion, jarring the head/neck from behind. There is a 'pattern' to the movement. Do it wrong, and it doesn't matter if you get the target correctly; it wont work. Do it right and their eyes go wonky and they can't figure out why they can't get their balance for a few seconds.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

Learning the target area is half the training. The other half is learning how to deliver it effectively. After 'punch hard' (which is good), there is a whole world of learning the appropriate amount of pressure, power, speed, angle, etc, to delivering a strike with other parts of the hands (and body).

A case in point is the natural hook at the base of the thumb when you make a fist. It can be applied to the rear of the base of the skull in a circular motion, jarring the head/neck from behind. There is a 'pattern' to the movement. Do it wrong, and it doesn't matter if you get the target correctly; it wont work. Do it right and their eyes go wonky and they can't figure out why they can't get their balance for a few seconds.

Just like grappling, pretty much.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

"Soft Break" - one concrete paver like you buy at Home Depot or Lowes for a buck. 16 inches by 8 inches by 2 inches thick. Phone book on top to protect the hand.

Palm strike through the block; less power, more focus. I just did one paver because it was a demo and we had a limited number of pavers available. I normally do three. My sensei does far more, of course. No spacers. We just pile 'em up and bust 'em.

Now just imagine that as a slap. If I can bust a paver with an open hand, I can bust your face with the same strike. And it's nothing special; we have ladies in our dojo who are quite petite who bust more concrete than I do. All technique.

 

[oaktree]

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying there. Could you clarify? Thanks.

Also, most people generally say I practice an "external" style. But I'm also under the impression that there really isn't much difference between internal and external styles, they just follow a different order of operations. Internal styles develop inner-power (chi flow) first, then they develop external power later on. Whereas the external styles develop the hard body and external power first, then they develop internal power later on. My style does have both external and internal elements involved in it. So how can you tell the difference? What are your thoughts on this?

If you practice internal you don't need to focus on external that is why in say Daito Ryu aikijujutsu someone who doesn't rely on external strength can grasp the concepts faster then say some who tries to use muscle to make a technique work.
Internal is not just qi flow(weird that didn't use pin yin but whatever) it is a lot of other things involved, takes a lot more time to develop. Xingyiquan is a great example of a chop, we don't chop at you we chop through you.

 

[Steve]

Iron Man:

View attachment 20615

I've heard of extreme ironing:

 

[oaktree]

How internal stylist throw a chop, punch, or forearm strike there is no difference.

To clarify this more, when you express fa Jin, the hand wrist arm shoulder waist, legs are all one, as Chen xiaowang says there is no difference from fa Jin from fist or shoulder it's same movement. In Baguazhang the arm swings how it hits doesn't matter as we hit with whole arm, same as xingyiquan all of these hit with whole body and mind into strike, the idea is to hit through as the mind project is through the target at impact.

 

[Blindside]

Learning the target area is half the training. The other half is learning how to deliver it effectively. After 'punch hard' (which is good), there is a whole world of learning the appropriate amount of pressure, power, speed, angle, etc, to delivering a strike with other parts of the hands (and body).

One of my cousins when he was 8 "judo chopped" (like he had seen on TV, he had no training) another kid in the playground during a disagreement. Kid was KO'd and my cousin thought he had killed him. Sometimes you just get lucky, and in my cousin's case, suspended.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is Iron Fist training but it's usually under the same category as iron palm. Iron palm usually encompasses the fist, palm, backfist, and knife edge of the hand.

The white ape system trains that way.

白猿通背拳--- 基本技法(1)—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

 

[Bill Mattocks]

One of my cousins when he was 8 "judo chopped" (like he had seen on TV, he had no training) another kid in the playground during a disagreement. Kid was KO'd and my cousin thought he had killed him. Sometimes you just get lucky, and in my cousin's case, suspended.

When I started training, I wondered about that whole "karate chop" thing. Was it really a thing? Did people really chop each other instead of punching and kicking?

I learned yes, it's a real thing. Yes, you can 'chop' someone, and there are many effective ways to do just that. I also learned that there are many, many, uses for the hand in that 'chop' formation that are not necessarily 'chops'. Delivered palm up, palm down, palm facing away or towards you, there are pushes, deflections, grabs, hooks, strikes, rubs (yes, rubs) and yes, chops.

Evolution resulted in primates having these wonderful tools called 'hands' that are amazingly versatile and in so many ways. From gross movements like a punch or a hammer to fine motor control like threading a needle or performing surgery, hands are incredibly capable. As applied to self-defense, it is clear that many people thought long and hard about all the ways in which the various ways hands can be formed and how they can be moved through space to attack and defend. It's nearly limitless what hands can do.

They are so much more than bludgeoning tools. And in this, the core of martial arts may exist. Expanding to the entire body, all that the body is capable of in terms of movement and balance and surfaces to be used, serious introspection is required, followed by lots of experimentation, repetition, and of course, relying upon the instruction of those who have gone before and the systems that they codified when they did the very same thing.

 

[frank raud]

So the brachial plexus, that's the collarbone area right? That's another good target area. Glad you mentioned it. .

No. The collarbone is a separate area. Elder is discussing the results of the same strike and area that most of this conversation is about. Might I suggest a copy of Grey's Anatomy.

 

[frank raud]

With a combatives background, as well as being PPCT certified, chops are definitely part of my repertoire. In addition to the many fine examples of their uses already mentioned, I find they are quite effective for breaking down a boxing guard. chopping down on the forearms works wonders for me.