Darth Maul Staff style

Discussion in 'Members in Motion' started by Ivan, Jan 4, 2021.

  1. oftheherd11

    oftheherd11 Yellow Belt

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    Thanks. I am OK except for a really bad back problem. I require a cane most of the time so I have to learn how to walk with 3 legs. :p

    No fancy jumping kicks unless I can beat that.
     
  2. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Very nice open hand and bo forms. What is that form called in your style?

    Don't you love that feeling when people from the other rings are turning around to watch you or your kid perform?

    Priceless memories.
     
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  3. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    The kata is Kanku Dai. It's not part of our style, but he liked it so he and his instructor added that version.

    The bo form he came up with himself.
     
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  4. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    No.

    What you've found there is a modern interpretation of Joachim Meyer's 1570 treatise on weapon usage, which is where the quarterstaff material is found... except, in a way, it's not staff fighting at all. Instead, in Meyer's work, quarterstaff is used as the framework to build skills, weapon management, and the strength and constitution to handle longer, heavier weapons... specifically halberds, pikes, other pole-arms, and even the large two-handed "great sword" (zweihandler). So this is really not a particularly good, nor typical, example of staff fighting methodologies.

    Next, the idea of "poking" with a staff is, to put it bluntly, stupid. A staff is an impact weapon, one that generates power with momentum and having the weapon travel over a large distance... so swinging around to strike with the end of the weapon is going to be the "go-to"... thrusts can be powerful, but need to be done with a slower action... a "poke" is an annoyance... and anyone who approaches a weapon without understanding the first thing about it's usage is someone who is about to be killed.

    Nope. That's a spear.

    Look, as you say, those who know what they're doing with a weapon will be better armed than the one who doesn't.... so let me say this. You don't know what you're doing with one, and, in this, along with Rat, are completely unarmed.

    In addition, the idea of "hold one end" is also far from universal... holding the middle of the weapon is the more common method used in Okinawa, as already mentioned... and, one might note, "hold one end" is not going to be overly practical for a "Darth Maul" approach....

    Well, that's almost accurate... deeply simplified, of course, and missing much in the way of, you know, context, but basically enough that you can make it look like you know what you're talking about. You don't, of course, but a good attempt at picking something you think is obvious enough that it can't be argued with...

    Just in case you want to make it seem like I'm saying things without basis, yes, there are many reasons that the spear was a dominant weapon... but that needs a lot of additional information added to it. In Japan, for example, spears became a dominant battlefield weapon in the Sengoku Jidai for ashigaru, as well as higher ranking samurai, with the idea of spearmanship being a measuring stick (so to speak) of individual skill... but that was, realistically, only in a certain context and only for a relatively short time. For the vast majority of the samurai's existence, the dominant weapon was the bow-and-arrow... with skill as an archer being the sign of a skilled warrior. That was from basically the 11th Century through to the mid-16th... which is when firearms started to reduce the effect that archery had.

    Where spear came into it was when we got past the range of projectile weapons... once the distance closed, and it came down to hand-to-hand weapons, spears were the go-to in many cultures mainly due to the range itself... you can kill someone from a safer distance than a short sword or knife, so, yeah, that. But a staff won't kill someone from that range with "poking them"... and, although a staff is used in some systems to build skills that then transfer across to pole-arms (such as spears and halberds), it's still a different weapon.

    Well... either you don't understand the first thing about those logical fallacies, or you really didn't understand what I said, so let's make this clear...

    You have exactly ZERO knowledge or understanding of the weapon, it's usage, it's context, or anything related.

    Your comments show that you don't even know the basics of a safe grip on the weapon, let alone anything else.

    You have no experience with the weapon at all.

    I've trained in such weapons for close to three decades.

    Your comments have no value.

    Did that help?

    Let's just pull apart your idea on grip, and the placement (and stress on) the thumbs... as that, by itself, tells me you've never even held a staff in a combative sense before.

    You said the following:
    A proper grip on the weapon has the staff supported by your wrist, with the heel of your hand directly behind the opposite side to where the impact would be coming from... your thumbs aren't in a position where they are even taking any force, let alone getting stress from the impact. If you have your thumb along the back-side of the weapon (where it might be "forced out of your grip"), then you're holding it incorrectly.

    This is the point... you don't have any experience or knowledge to back up the incredibly off-base "advise" you are trying to offer... when you do that, expect to get called on it by people who actually do these things. None of this is a logical fallacy, other than the lack of logic of you thinking you can offer genuine or valid advise... or are in a position to argue.
     
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  5. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Do you have any evidence of your methods working at all anywhere in any sort of live environment?

    Because the problem is especially with weapons is that someone will say they have spent 3 decades training to be a master weapons guy.

    And we quite often find it was 3 decades doing this.

     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  6. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Well, that's an incredibly different post to the one you put up originally.... and really, watch the art-bashing, as you're skirting pretty damn close, if not crossing the line (again).

    What I will say is that I have little love for the majority of the way the Bujinkan approaches such things... they have an incredibly rich and solid curriculum with a serious basis in genuine skill, then put it aside to make up stuff like that... which, if it's done as a creative expression, is fine... when they think it's realistic is another issue entirely. But, at the end of the day, each to their own.

    With regards to your actual question, though, you're applying a metric that is, frankly, lacking in many facets of reality. We don't fight with such weapons in the same context as the methods are designed for, so there's no arena to have any such test... beyond that, the methods themselves are the litmus test... this is not something that you've ever grasped, no matter how often it's been explained to you, but I'm going to try one more time. The study of such weapons and technologies are predicated upon sound principles, applied in a teaching methodology that has been shown to have benefit and value in the way they're done... it's the same as asking if you've seen broken someone's arm with an arm-bar... you don't need any "live environment" to know that a technically sound arm-bar can break an arm. So how about we stop with your insistence on a single metric, especially where it's baseless and meaningless? Oh, and the veiled digs? Yeah... neither appreciated, nor within the rules either... so maybe you grow up a bit there as well?
     
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  7. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Very similar to the MDK form Kong San Koon. Since there are versions of the form across multiple styles it would be cool to know the history as to where the original form started. It would be very close but I suspect the Shotokan version is older.
     
  8. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I'm waiting with baited breath for some evidence. I can't wait. So far, all you've got is righteous indignation. I am sincerely interested in seeing the results of three decades of quality staff training.

    While I'm not optimistic, I would also be very curious to see how well a guy with three decades of staff training fares against someone who is less concerned with unnecessary flourish.

    If you could just... I don't know... share some of that evidence. Demonstrate in some tangible manner that you're selling snake oil to us.
     
  9. donald1

    donald1 Senior Master

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    The forms look decent, I think. I'm not good at judging forms based on watching them on videos.

    A small nitpick from the video, turning their backs to their opponents. Those spin maneuvers they make. Not a fan of that. Doing that is a little too bold for my taste. I'm assuming they might be turning around to face a second opponent? Aside from that, I can't think of any reason to turn your back to the person in front of you.

    Feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong though.
     
  10. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    That is horrible. A lot of unrealistic things, some of which look made up on the spot. Like the one where he pins the sword, then steps on the sword and drops his own weapon while stepping on the sword. As much as I've trained with the Staff over the summer. A lot of that stuff isn't going to happen as shown in their demo. Doing that stuff will get you killed.
     
  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I have broken someone's arm.

    If you haven't fought a guy with a stick. Honestly you are probably not going to be very good at it. This is regardless how many times you have drilled whatever it is you drill.

    This is consistent with pretty much all forms of physical activity. (Sort of. If say you used a stick for some practical purpose you might be better at using it in a fight)

    So with you who hasn't fought with a stick against another person who hasn't fought with a stick you only have a slightly better chance of being successful.

    And that will rely on external factors like timing, strength and aggressiveness rather than pulling off what was practiced in a drill at half pace with a compliant partner.

    And all of this equates to the suggestion that you have some actual practical mastery of a stick outside your own specific context is a pretty big call.
     
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    It is a drill thing. Everyone does it. I did it last night when I had to drill take downs.(Do every throw you know. And after I did both of them I get kind of stuck.)

    You go from your few sensible attacks and defences but realise you still have space to fill up so you start going a bit crazy. It is a drill so basically everything is going to work.

    Eventually you get the feedback that your crazy has some sort of real practical benefit . And that it is some sort of advanced version of basics. Rather than basics just done really well being an advanced form of basics.
     
  13. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I believe what you say about your training, still not sure about that staff vs sword video you posted lol.

    And it could be that I'm just missing a lot of context because I didn't watch it with the sound on.
     
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  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Oh. Yeah. A junkie with a two by four would clean up those dudes.
     
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  15. MartialMasterTeddy

    MartialMasterTeddy Yellow Belt

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    The D Maul scene in Star Wars 1 is MPA Chitwood or 'i appear as non-violence.' Chitwood is an advanced MPA.
     
  16. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Kind of funny he looks like he doesnt do strength training, and at that i will be the doesnt have like a 20kg grip strength, yet he is practising grabbing a SHARP sword which would require some obscene grip strength and friction to stop the person from just draw cutting it out of your hand. (dont quote the science its hyperbole, but you need a pretty good grip strength and that is a practise in itself, i think strongmen have obscenely strong grips due to the sport they do/train for)

    I honestly wouldnt endorse grabbing the blade at all due to draw cut concerns and the fact a blade is ahrd to hold onto.


    and pretty much that, time doing something doesnt mean anything alone, unless its related to the subject. Relivent and quality training for 30 years how ever does. (i can just cite somone doing tai chi for 30 years for spirtual and fitness reasons trying to apply that to boxing against somone doing boxing for that long)


    Addendum: As for the reply i saw to this, the best comprable would be not that a arm bar can break a arm, but looking how the arm bar is applied and how you deploy the technique. so to stickyfy this, we all know a 6cm diamter piece of oak if swung really hard can hurt somone, thats not in discussion, the deployment of it is. And the outstanding training methdolodies and focus.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    The broken arm argument is silly. There is a difference between me waving my hands around and claiming your arm is broken and holding you in a submission.
     
  18. dunc

    dunc Blue Belt

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    There's a lot that's painful to watch in that clip....
     
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  19. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I’ve not seen the video you are referencing, so my comments are not connected to that.

    However, it is my understanding that at least in European sword work, grabbing the blade was a standard technique. Having a soft leather glove on the hand I expect would help with a firm grip. Also: the sword was not kept razor sharp. Doing so creates a very thin edge, which lends itself to damage during use, when the steel clashes with steel. The sword was kept “sharp”, with a thicker edge that better withstands abuse, and was plenty effective with the chopping/cutting techniques.

    Once you get a grip on the blade, you don’t just try to pull it away from the enemy. That gives him the resistance needed to pull back, and possibly cut you. Instead, you keep the arm and shoulder somewhat relaxed and you grip the blade and ride along whatever he tries to do, and you control where he is able to thrust the blade. In this way you keep the threat away from you while you kill him with your weapon.

    In gripping the blade, you don’t squeeze it with pressure on the edges directly into your palm or fingers. There would be a finesse to it in how you strive to places it in your grip.
     
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  20. dunc

    dunc Blue Belt

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    There is definitely a technique to gripping a blade
    It works well if you know how to do it and does require a certain amount of grip strength and non-sweaty hands123
     

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