cutting punch

[LFJ]

@gpseymour Thanks for rating all my posts funny. You come here solely to argue on behalf of other approaches to a MA you have no experience with. It's quite bizarre, and you are another odd grudge-holder for reasons unknown. I guess things seem funny when you have no idea what's going on.

 

[Steve]

It hasn't been derailed. That was just never the issue.

The issue was maintaining the triangle between shoulder, fist, and elbow, by keeping the elbow at the lowest point, versus losing the triangle by allowing the elbow to rise up to above shoulder level.

VT punches keep the elbow low and drive forward from the elbow.

And by the way, whether or not and how much the elbow will rise in relation to the ground depends on how far you are extending forward or upward.

I can have my elbow one fist's distance from my body and extend an elbow-driven punch to a good three fists' distance without the elbow rising in relation to the ground.

Next time you go to a bar or have a tall enough countertop, table, or maybe dresser around, prop your elbow up on it in punch-ready position, fist face height. You might have to stand a bit diagonally to it, so you have say left lead leg, right arm punching.

Then, extend your punch not leading with the wrist and allowing the elbow to rise, but driving forward with the elbow down. See how far it slides on the flat surface without rising off. You'll probably get at least a good 20cm if you do it right.

That's punching with the elbow down. If you need to angle a punch more upward, the same low elbow applies. The elbow should not pop up and lose triangle even when rising in relation to the ground.

This seemed to work for me. I was able to extend my arm while keeping my elbow down and in contact with the table. If, as juany suggests, this is physically impossible according to irrefutable laws of physics, I must have been doing it wrong, because, as LFJ suggests, it didn't seem to be all that difficult.

I don't know if it's an effective punching technique, but I am pretty sure it isn't contrary to natural laws.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This seemed to work for me. I was able to extend my arm while keeping my elbow down and in contact with the table. If, as juany suggests, this is physically impossible according to irrefutable laws of physics, I must have been doing it wrong, because, as LFJ suggests, it didn't seem to be all that difficult.

I don't know if it's an effective punching technique, but I am pretty sure it isn't contrary to natural laws.

It's also not much of a punch, and punching was the point under discussion. The claim at one point was that WSLVT punches always do that.

 

[LFJ]

This seemed to work for me. I was able to extend my arm while keeping my elbow down and in contact with the table. If, as juany suggests, this is physically impossible according to irrefutable laws of physics, I must have been doing it wrong, because, as LFJ suggests, it didn't seem to be all that difficult.

I don't know if it's an effective punching technique, but I am pretty sure it isn't contrary to natural laws.

Either that or the laws of physics have been suspended in our favor to prove a point.

 

[LFJ]

It's also not much of a punch, and punching was the point under discussion. The claim at one point was that WSLVT punches always do that.

It's not a punch. It's an illustration. A real punch will have the entire body mass behind it, from ground up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's not a punch. It's an illustration. A real punch will have the entire body mass behind it, from ground up.

And, yet, you used it in a discussion regarding the mechanics of a punch.

 

[LFJ]

And, yet, you used it in a discussion regarding the mechanics of a punch.

It's part of the overall mechanics. What's hard to understand?

Either you're abnormally slow, or are being oddly biased for some reason.

 

[Steve]

It's also not much of a punch, and punching was the point under discussion. The claim at one point was that WSLVT punches always do that.

That's hard for me to judge, as I don't punch that way. But I can say that LFJ doesn't seem to have asserted anything that is demonstrably false. Others, who have suggested that it is impossible, have asserted something that is demonstrably false.

From a lay perspective, the people who are making overblown claims that can be shown to be false are the ones losing credibility.

Or to put it similarly to how Juany did, I say, "an object at rest stays at rest," and you say, "Nuh uh. That's impossible." Who's credible?

LFJ says you can extend an arm while keeping the elbow down. He provides a simple, easily conducted experiment to demonstrate what he means. Other people say (and please picture Luke Skywalker responding to Darth Vader on Cloud City), "No. No. That's not true. That's impossible!"
Guy B: Search your feelings, you *know* it to be true!
Nobody Important: [anguished] No! No! "

 

[Juany118]

doesnt that depend on the direction the arm is being extended and whether the shoulder is engaged?

And ultimately, even if your point is irrefutable, does it matter? you are convinced you're right, and you won't stop because you have a weird need to make whoever it is that you disagree with (I honestly don't know which of them that is off the top of my head) acknowledge that you are right. Do you think theyre going to, all of a sudden, say, "juany, my bad. You're so smart and handsome, I should know better than to argue with you. Are you free tonight?"

For the first part it has been clarified (since some people don't train specifically in the punch) that the elbow is oriented so it points "down" in the punch to provide the specific context being used here.

I no longer see the responses because clearly they will simply just keep moving goal posts in order to obfuscate the original error and hence why I no longer see their responses. I just wanted to clarify the difference between the two positions and that one is actually talking about a bonafide fact of bio mechanics. As an example even if you "sink" as you perform such a punch, relative to the surface you are standing on the elbow rises, simply because your sinking at the legs acts an opposing force doesn't change the actual movement of the elbow through space, which is as the hand moves forward the extension cause the elbow to rise due to it being a hinge joint. If you look at the video I linked early that is the WC punch. Additionally, as @gpseymour also made clear, unless you are going to bar a punch to the face/head of an opponent, after a particular size differential, the elbow will rise higher than the shoulder. None of this has anything to do with MA, it's biomechanics and geometry.

I have no problem with people having different opinions. As an example someone prefers another WC Lineage, another MA all together? Good for them, I am interested to learn how/why they came to their opinion as I will learn something. However to quote Harlan Ellison, "you are not entitled to an opinion, you are entitled to an informed opinion, no one is entitled to be ignorant." If someone is going to make statements contradicted by science I think, even if for only a bit, they need to be called for such shenanigans.

 

[LFJ]

From a lay perspective,

From a lay perspective, you can see things clearly, or at least be honest about what you see, because you have no ego invested in being on one side or the other.

That can't be said of some who are posting against me, it seems. Juany thinks I dissed his lineage because I made an observation of something in a video that he said was not there.

I really don't know what dog gpseymour has in the fight, though.

 

[wtxs]

I didn't see anything about a level punch. People are moving the goalposts on me. And now we're talking about the entire arm moving forward,,,

Your arm don't move forward when you punch?

 

[Steve]

Your arm don't move forward when you punch?

not my entire arm. Some of it is rotating around my shoulder.

 

[wtxs]

Two people have asked for a video. They haven't provided one. I actually think they are trolling on this one. They're too obvious.

If I had not done so, make it #3.

 

[wtxs]

not my entire arm. Some of it is rotating around my shoulder.

Please explain

 

[Steve]

For the first part it has been clarified (since some people don't train specifically in the punch) that the elbow is oriented so it points "down" in the punch to provide the specific context being used here.

I no longer see the responses because clearly they will simply just keep moving goal posts in order to obfuscate the original error and hence why I no longer see their responses. I just wanted to clarify the difference between the two positions and that one is actually talking about a bonafide fact of bio mechanics. As an example even if you "sink" as you perform such a punch, relative to the surface you are standing on the elbow rises, simply because your sinking at the legs acts an opposing force doesn't change the actual movement of the elbow through space.

I have no problem with people having different opinions. As an example someone prefers another WC Lineage, another MA all together? Good for them, I am interested to learn how/why they came to their opinion as I will learn something. However to quote Harlan Ellison, "you are not entitled to an opinion, you are entitled to an informed opinion, no one is entitled to be ignorant."

All I can tell you is that I can put my elbow on a table, elbow down with my fist vertical. Without sinking my legs or moving any other part of my body, I can extend my arm, sliding my elbow along the table until it is almost fully extended. My legs don't enter the picture. That's not my opinion. The above isn't me guessing I can do that. I actually did it. In fact, just to make sure, I took a brief moment after writing the sentences above to do it again. Did it.

Hold on... let me try again.

Did it again. And barring some kind of injury or impairment, you could do it, too, I am sure.

Bringing up snarky comments about opinions also doesn't reflect well on you. It's arrogant and unnecessarily dismissive (and I think you know that), particularly as your position is AS fully entrenched as you believe the other team's to be.

 

[Juany118]

Or to put it similarly to how Juany did, I say, "an object at rest stays at rest," and you say, "Nuh uh. That's impossible." Who's credible?

LFJ says you can extend an arm while keeping the elbow down. He provides a simple, easily conducted experiment to demonstrate what he means. Other people say (and please picture Luke Skywalker responding to Darth Vader on Cloud City), "No. No. That's not true. That's impossible!"
Guy B: Search your feelings, you *know* it to be true!
Nobody Important: [anguished] No! No! "

That isn't what anyone is doing. First when it is being said the elbow rises we me this, for the purpose of illustration could you do this experiment.

Put your arm at a right angle, upper arm parallel to your side you fist pointing forward, the elbow down. Now extend your arm. You elbow is still pointed down BUT as your arm extends the elbow rises in relation to the surface you are standing on.

Next do the same thing but but have the target be continuously taller. Eventually your elbow will be higher than your shoulder.

That is all we are talking about on the opposing side. There has been a lot of extraneous BS thrown in but those two points are the key points and unless I missed something they really aren't up for debate.

 

[Steve]

Please explain

The shoulder is a ball joint. The part of my arm that is attached to the shoulder is rotating around the joint. It's not moving forward. Rather, it's moving in an arc. It may appear to be moving forward, but that's an illusion.

 

[Steve]

That isn't what anyone is doing. First when it is being said the elbow rises we me this, for the purpose of illustration could you do this experiment.

Put your arm at a right angle, upper arm parallel to your side you fist pointing forward, the elbow down. Now extend your arm. You elbow is still pointed down BUT as your arm extends the elbow rises in relation to the surface you are standing on.

Next do the same thing but but have the target be continuously taller. Eventually your elbow will be higher than your shoulder.

That is all we are talking about on the opposing side. There has been a lot of extraneous BS thrown in but those two points are the key points and unless I missed something they really aren't up for debate.

Has it occurred to you that if you're saying one thing that is clearly correct and the other team is saying something that is clearly correct, you might not be talking about the same thing? I mean, at some point, it seems like one of you would say, "You know, that sounds reasonable. I see what you mean. Here's what I mean." And everyone goes on about their business. In other words, if you're both right, you're either talking about something that has multiple possible right answers and we're in the realm of preference, or you're not talking about the same thing.

That's what I meant when I said that you're just as entrenched as the other side, and that you're all arguing such similar things that it's difficult to tell which side is which sometimes.

 

[Juany118]

All I can tell you is that I can put my elbow on a table, elbow down with my fist vertical. Without sinking my legs or moving any other part of my body, I can extend my arm, sliding my elbow along the table until it is almost fully extended. My legs don't enter the picture. That's not my opinion. The above isn't me guessing I can do that. I actually did it. In fact, just to make sure, I took a brief moment after writing the sentences above to do it again. Did it.

Hold on... let me try again.

Did it again. And barring some kind of injury or impairment, you could do it, too, I am sure.

Bringing up snarky comments about opinions also doesn't reflect well on you. It's arrogant and unnecessarily dismissive (and I think you know that), particularly as your position is AS fully entrenched as you believe the other team's to be.

Well I did just try your experiment and when I do so, to get to full extension of a punch (not elbow locked mind you but close to it and still keep the elbow still flat my torso moves. Yeah if I want my arm to stay at an angle from the elbow to the shoulder that can work but the angle between the elbow and shoulder is obviously more than one would have with a punch.

As such I have two options, lean sideways into the arm or lower the torso towards the table.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's part of the overall mechanics. What's hard to understand?

Either you're abnormally slow, or are being oddly biased for some reason.

It's not part of the overall mechanics of a punch. What's so hard to understand?