WSL pivoting clip

[guy b]

WSL explaining why he pivots on heels

 

[wckf92]

WSL explaining why he pivots on heels

Exactly

 

[Danny T]

Depends on what the other person is doing so...sometimes...Yes.

 

[KPM]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with the great WSL. The difference is not whether you are shifting on the heels or shifting near the balls of the feet. The difference is whether you shift on a central pivot point or allow your body to swing to one side when you pivot. If you let your body swing off of a central pivot, then the punch does not travel straight to the target, but rather has to "go around." Watch the close up of WSL demo'ing the two kinds of pivot. He swings to the side when he shows the pivot "on the toes." But in Pin Sun we don't not let the body swing to the side like that. We pivot on the K1 point near the toes while still pivoting around a central pivot point so that the punch goes straight. So again, it isn't a matter of what part of the foot you are pivoting on, as WSL suggests. Its really a matter of whether you maintain a central pivot point or not!

 

[Marnetmar]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with the great WSL. The difference is not whether you are shifting on the heels or shifting near the balls of the feet. The difference is whether you shift on a central pivot point or allow your body to swing to one side when you pivot. If you let your body swing off of a central pivot, then the punch does not travel straight to the target, but rather has to "go around." Watch the close up of WSL demo'ing the two kinds of pivot. He swings to the side when he shows the pivot "on the toes." But in Pin Sun we don't not let the body swing to the side like that. We pivot on the K1 point near the toes while still pivoting around a central pivot point so that the punch goes straight. So again, it isn't a matter of what part of the foot you are pivoting on, as WSL suggests. Its really a matter of whether you maintain a central pivot point or not!

This, pivoting on the toes does not necessarily entail swinging your body clear over to the side.

(I will confess that I actually used to do that at one point in time)

 

[Vajramusti]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with the great WSL. The difference is not whether you are shifting on the heels or shifting near the balls of the feet. The difference is whether you shift on a central pivot point or allow your body to swing to one side when you pivot. If you let your body swing off of a central pivot, then the punch does not travel straight to the target, but rather has to "go around." Watch the close up of WSL demo'ing the two kinds of pivot. He swings to the side when he shows the pivot "on the toes." But in Pin Sun we don't not let the body swing to the side like that. We pivot on the K1 point near the toes while still pivoting around a central pivot point so that the punch goes straight. So again, it isn't a matter of what part of the foot you are pivoting on, as WSL suggests. Its really a matter of whether you maintain a central pivot point or not!

 

[Vajramusti]

Too bad WSL did not have the benefit of your advice

 

[Transk53]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with the great WSL. The difference is not whether you are shifting on the heels or shifting near the balls of the feet. The difference is whether you shift on a central pivot point or allow your body to swing to one side when you pivot. If you let your body swing off of a central pivot, then the punch does not travel straight to the target, but rather has to "go around." Watch the close up of WSL demo'ing the two kinds of pivot. He swings to the side when he shows the pivot "on the toes." But in Pin Sun we don't not let the body swing to the side like that. We pivot on the K1 point near the toes while still pivoting around a central pivot point so that the punch goes straight. So again, it isn't a matter of what part of the foot you are pivoting on, as WSL suggests. Its really a matter of whether you maintain a central pivot point or not!

Yes probably, if you count normal alignment. Some of us find other ways. WSL, just a typical viewpoint, not anything wrong with that per see, but adaption is something many lack, if looking for perfection.

 

[KangTsai]

I don't disagree with his point, but to me it's kind of like arguing between the low and middle option.

When shadowing that position right there, my instinct is to just step forward while punching + redirecting the hand, making a right cross.

I think the inefficiency of that hip shift from the toes comes in simply because you're standing with hips square. It creates the need for that detail to restrict unnecessary motion, when you could just step forward to improve the motion of the attack efficiently which WSL stresses here. What your pivot is doesn't matter, it's the position you ultimately achieve.

I am not by any means acceptably knowledgeable with wing chun, I am just talking from a general perspective. Please correct me on anything.

 

[KPM]

Too bad WSL did not have the benefit of your advice

Too bad he didn't have the benefit of your snarky comments.

 

[geezer]

There are a lot of ways to turn effectively. My old Chinese sifu insisted on turning on the "center of the foot". This was consistent with his system. I've experimented with other methods and have to agree with Keith that distancing when turning is really a function of whether or not you shift your vertical axis laterally as you pivot.

If you shift your axis (i.e. shift your weight) laterally as you turn, you will create distance. This may be a good or bad thing depending on what you are trying to achieve. IMO, what matters most is that you can move quickly, with balance, and maintain forward intent. These are attributes of good fighters regardless of lineage or style.

 

[Danny T]

There are a lot of ways to turn effectively. My old Chinese sifu insisted on turning on the "center of the foot". This was consistent with his system. I've experimented with other methods and have to agree with Keith that distancing when turning is really a function of whether or not you shift your vertical axis laterally as you pivot.

If you shift your axis (i.e. shift your weight) laterally as you turn, you will create distance. This may be a good or bad thing depending on what you are trying to achieve. IMO, what matters most is that you can move quickly, with balance, and maintain forward intent. These are attributes of good fighters regardless of lineage or style.

There is Learning, there is Practicing, and there is Fighting.
Who, What, When, Where, Why will give you the How.
There is nothing 100 percent 100 percent of the time.

 

[guy b]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with the great WSL. The difference is not whether you are shifting on the heels or shifting near the balls of the feet. The difference is whether you shift on a central pivot point or allow your body to swing to one side when you pivot. If you let your body swing off of a central pivot, then the punch does not travel straight to the target, but rather has to "go around." Watch the close up of WSL demo'ing the two kinds of pivot. He swings to the side when he shows the pivot "on the toes." But in Pin Sun we don't not let the body swing to the side like that. We pivot on the K1 point near the toes while still pivoting around a central pivot point so that the punch goes straight. So again, it isn't a matter of what part of the foot you are pivoting on, as WSL suggests. Its really a matter of whether you maintain a central pivot point or not!

Assume you push off back foot in Pin Sun?

 

[KPM]

Assume you push off back foot in Pin Sun?

Do you mean during the pivot? Or when stepping forward? There is not push off with the pivot. You just pivot. When stepping in, yes we would push off with the back foot.

 

[guy b]

 

[geezer]

^^^ ??? Please explain your diagram and it's relation to this discussion.

 

[Danny T]

Interesting...have no idea what is being presented but it's interesting.
In Pekiti-Tirsia we have some footwork patterns that are similar. What is the meaning of the solid lines and the dashed lines?

Oh, hold on a moment. Is it that the solid lines are the feet being straight ahead and the dashed lines are the feet after the pivoted? The lines to the left represents pivoting on the toes and the lines to the right represent pivoting on the heels?

 

[Vajramusti]

I have no comment on the diagram. But I do have some comments on pivoting in wing chun----there are quite few different systems from people in Ip Man families. I leave slant body and gulao alone.Among Ip Man groups
there seem to be the following imo.
1. Leung Shun's turning one foot at a time--you see it in Ben Der and Kenneth Chung
2. Leung Ting got his start with a relative who was Leung Shun;s student
3. William Cheung's toes are not turned inwards and he steps to turn
4. Folks who supposedly turn on their K1 point
5. WSL's pivoting on the heel
6. Ho Kam Ming pivoting on the heel-integrated knee usage.There is no leaning back

Variations in large part depending on time spent with Ip Man

 

[dudewingchun]

4. Folks who supposedly turn on their K1 point

What do you mean supposedly? Its just an ideal weight distribution point for certain lineages including my own. I prefer it to turning on the heels.

 

[guy b]

Oh, hold on a moment. Is it that the solid lines are the feet being straight ahead and the dashed lines are the feet after the pivoted? The lines to the left represents pivoting on the toes and the lines to the right represent pivoting on the heels?

Yes, pivoting on the toes moves your base away from the point of contact