curious

[Earl Weiss]

We must have trained with very different Taekwondo teachers. My Taekwondo teachers taught that you could make up any thing you like in regard to what Poomsae, Hyung, Kata, etc, because that is what the masters of Karate did, they made it up.

Abso freekin lootely. Goes back to another thread. "Wax On Wax off" The way of moving was most important. Then you figured out any practical way of applying the motion.

 

[mastercole]

:lfao:

No.....:lfao:....that's Korean.....:lfao:....for......:lfao:....."I have no idea." :lfao:

No it's Korean for I have a lot of ideas, and you came have them to, just like the karate guy that fantasized about how this stuff 'might' work.

Live application is much more exciting anyway.

 

[elder999]

No it's Korean for I have a lot of ideas, and you came have them to, just like the karate guy that fantasized about how this stuff 'might' work.

Live application is much more exciting anyway.

Oooh, I guess that's true-the "founding geniuses of tae kwon do" studied with the likes of Toyama and Funakoshi, and then said "Make something up with it," was the best bunkai, years after Funakoshi showed bunkai in a book.



EDIT: To be fair, there probably weren't many Shotokan instructors in the U.S. aware of or teaching the grappling bunkai of these kata-not back in the 70's, anyway-in spite of their having been recorded in books for more than 50 years. My Kyokushin instructors knew them and taught them. My tae kwon do instructors did not.

 

[mastercole]

Oooh, I guess that's true-the "founding geniuses of tae kwon do" studied with the likes of Toyama and Funakoshi, and then said "Make something up with it," was the best bunkai, years after Funakoshi showed bunkai in a book.


EDIT: To be fair, there probably weren't many Shotokan instructors in the U.S. aware of or teaching the grappling bunkai of these kata-not back in the 70's, anyway-in spite of their having been recorded in books for more than 50 years. My Kyokushin instructors knew them and taught them. My tae kwon do instructors did not.

They did study with those men and they were very proud of it. But they had the vision to move beyond that. Thank God! That is why I left karate and followed them, to much bunkai, not enough real application

As for bunkai, it's an interesting look at a bunch of theories that don't apply when the going gets real, nothing a good old fashioned American punch in the nose would not shut down, at least that's been my personal experience with bunkai. But if you like it, cool, I recommend you publish a book, some folks out there might be interested.

 

[elder999]

As for bunkai, it's an interesting look at a bunch of theories that don't apply when the going gets real, nothing a good old fashioned American punch in the nose would not shut down, at least that's been my personal experience with bunkai. .

And it's been my experience that everyone is planning on a "good old fashioned American punch to the nose," right up until I drop them on their head. :lfao:

 

[mastercole]

And it's been my experience that everyone is planning on a "good old fashioned American punch to the nose," right up until I drop them on their head. :lfao:

Everyone is a lot of people. That's the thing about bunkai, it develops one powers of imagination to great heights.

 

[elder999]

Everyone is a lot of people. That's the thing about bunkai, it develops one powers of imagination to great heights.

Oooh, and "just figure out what works for you" is sooo much less imaginative.... :lfao:

Seriously-the point was made that the demonstrations shown included throws and joint locks-grappling-that "Shotokan wasn't known for." I've pretty much shown that the Pinan kata contain these types of grappling, and always have.They are the Shotokan kata that the "founders of tae kwon do" learned, or, if you prefer, the Shudokan kata that the other "founders of tae kwon do" learned.

I guess it's so much easier to say that they "moved past" karate, right to what was always karate in the first place. Sheer genius. :lfao:

 

[mastercole]

Oooh, and "just figure out what works for you" is sooo much less imaginative.... :lfao:

Seriously-the point was made that the demonstrations shown included throws and joint locks-grappling-that "Shotokan wasn't known for." I've pretty much shown that the Pinan kata contain these types of grappling, and always have.They are the Shotokan kata that the "founders of tae kwon do" learned, or, if you prefer, the Shudokan kata that the other "founders of tae kwon do" learned.

I guess it's so much easier to say that they "moved past" karate, right to what was always karate in the first place. Sheer genius. :lfao:

Disrespect your Taekwondo teachers if you must. I am sure that nothing I have to write will change that, and why should it. At least thank them, as I do, for motivating you to leave, aiding you to get to the point you are currently at.

 

[elder999]

1454282[/URL]]Disrespect your Taekwondo teachers if you must. I am sure that nothing I have to write will change that, and why should it. At least thank them, as I do, for motivating you to leave, aiding you to get to the point you are currently at.

Mike McGinnis was a guard at my dad's prison. Dr. Park was a pretty fierce guy-and smart!-as were all those lawyers from Pace University.

Master Son was a true gentleman, who taught what he had learned to many.

I haven't called them liars and thieves-I've only posted facts-and I stuck with them to Yi dan before choosing-out of respect.

I don't disrespect them at all.

(Honestly, you'd think we were on the JudoForum or something.....:lol: )

 

[mastercole]

Mike McGinnis was a guard at my dad's prison. Dr. Park was a pretty fierce guy-and smart!-as were all those lawyers from Pace University.

Master Son was a true gentleman, who taught what he had learned to many.

I haven't called them liars and thieves-I've only posted facts-and I stuck with them to Yi dan before choosing-out of respect.

I don't disrespect them at all.

That's fantastic, they are so fortunate that a former student still expresses respect for them, I mean, Korean culture is Taekwondo culture so to be so respected by Korean masters -- being promoted not once, but twice by them, to me is a sign that they must have respected you. Congratulations on achieving Yi Dan from them.

 

[elder999]

That's fantastic, they are so fortunate that a former student still expresses respect for them, I mean, Korean culture is Taekwondo culture so to be so respected by Korean masters -- being promoted not once, but twice by them, to me is a sign that they must have respected you. Congratulations on achieving Yi Dan from them.

That was 30 years ago.........thanks, though.

EDIT: More than 30 years....jeez, I'm gettin' old....:lfao:

 

[Tez3]

They did study with those men and they were very proud of it. But they had the vision to move beyond that. Thank God! That is why I left karate and followed them, to much bunkai, not enough real application

As for bunkai, it's an interesting look at a bunch of theories that don't apply when the going gets real, nothing a good old fashioned American punch in the nose would not shut down, at least that's been my personal experience with bunkai. But if you like it, cool, I recommend you publish a book, some folks out there might be interested.

If you think Bunkai is theory you were definitely doing it wrong, and there are some very good books by some very good karateka on Bunkai and it's use in self defence, it's straight forward stuff that will take an attacker down, the old fashioned punch is in there anyway, if you didn't see it then you have really haven't got the point of Bunkai.
Try this series, plenty of TKD train this way as well.
http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/basics-bunkai-part-1

 

[mastercole]

If you think Bunkai is theory you were definitely doing it wrong, and there are some very good books by some very good karateka on Bunkai and it's use in self defence, it's straight forward stuff that will take an attacker down, the old fashioned punch is in there anyway, if you didn't see it then you have really haven't got the point of Bunkai.
Try this series, plenty of TKD train this way as well.
http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/basics-bunkai-part-1

If I wanted to learn anything, from anyone, I would go to the source to learn it, like I do with everything. Why would I go down the line, far from the source? But thank you for you wise guidance.

 

[Tez3]

If I wanted to learn anything, from anyone, I would go to the source to learn it, like I do with everything. Why would I go down the line, far from the source? But thank you for you wise guidance.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What source, who? Down what line? Are you saying karateka like Iain have no idea what they are talking about?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Try this series, plenty of TKD train this way as well.
http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/basics-bunkai-part-1

From the above article:" In this first article we've established that the modern labels aren't descriptions of function, that "blocks" aren't blocks, "

IMNSHO if you believe this as an absolute ---"Blocks" aren't --- never are Blocks, then your scope is too narrow.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

All those things have always existed in the Pinan/Heian kata-it's part of the reason I gave up tae kwon do: my kyokushin teachers knew this, and my tae kwon do teachers did not:

Funakoshi, from his book Ryuku Kenpo Toudi, circa 1922:

View attachment 15987View attachment 15988View attachment 15989View attachment 15990

All from Pinan/Heian shodan.

Yes, I suppose that wasn't a great example.. . I am aware of the applications within these forms. What I was getting at was that there are other arts that emphasize these elements more so than Shotokan. Shotokan isn't known for its grappling, throwing, or locking as is arts such as Aikido, Hapkido, or Jujutsu per say.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Why would you not have roots through the Kukkiwon? I thought GM Kang was you teacher?

Yes, my statement isn't as clear as it should've been. GM Kang, my KJN is Kukkiwon certified, so by that fact, I have roots through the KKW. However, no bb under him is KKW certified and we do not teach a KKW curriculum. All of our terminology is pre-KKW and all of our forms are pre-KKW. What I meant by my previous statement is that I do not practice a curriculum based on the ITF or the KKW.

 

[elder999]

I have no idea what you are talking about. What source, who? Down what line? Are you saying karateka like Iain have no idea what they are talking about?

No. I'm sure he means he'd go to the source, as I did.

Japan. :lfao:

 

[dancingalone]

As for bunkai, it's an interesting look at a bunch of theories that don't apply when the going gets real, nothing a good old fashioned American punch in the nose would not shut down, at least that's been my personal experience with bunkai. But if you like it, cool, I recommend you publish a book, some folks out there might be interested.

Not all bunkai is the same, and it shouldn't be relegated to the same mental drawer. This is another occasion where the particular type of karate and its training methods is important when discussing it. Some styles don't have it at all. Others do, but perhaps are more removed in relevance comparatively. And then there's the modern material which attempts to reinterpret kata to current common scenarios with varying levels of success.

Bunkai simply isn't a homogeneous concept anymore than karate is.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

It is a matter of degree as to when something is new or just a slight modification. Perhaps some critiqued Funakoshi as being re hashed Okinawan systems. Aside from the greater variety and emphasis on kicking I see a noted difference in the "Deeply Rooted" to the earth idea of Shotokan to generate power and the TKD ideas which embrace power generation even while airborn.

We certainly use/teach ground reactive force generation (a.k.a. "deeply rooted to the earth"), but I was taught that the key to generating the power in TSD/TKD is in hip/waist torque/rotation/snap. Something that to my knowledge was not a Shotokan principle.

For instance, the mechanics/power generation demonstrated in this video is vastly different than how I was taught to execute the movements.