curious

[Twin Fist]

and i dont think any honest person would disagree with that.

which is why the KKW is a bunch of liars and thieves, they continue to publish the lie, and untill the admit the truth, they are thieves as well.

IMO

 

[SahBumNimRush]

it is amazing to me how many people get butthurt over differeing opinions about martial arts. we are supposedly tough guys and gals, and the amount of preperation H flying around here is either sad or funny, i am not sure which

I'd like to note that I have also found this to be a very interesting discussion. Furthermore, since I have no lineage through the ITF or the KKW, I don't really have a dog in this fight, so to speak. In case any of my comments lead anyone to believe that I have been stricken with a hemorrhoid over the thread, I would just like to set the record straight that I have not

I enjoy discussing KMA/TSD/TKD history, although I am no historian. I do make an honest attempt to understand what my history is, and where it comes from. As stated previously, I acknowledge my art's Shotokan roots, but I also recognize that there are other roots outside of Shotokan as well.

 

[Twin Fist]

and thats honest of you

 

[puunui]

nice. As i am directly descended from jhoon rhee, i trace mine back to 1958

GM Jhoon Rhee did not call what he taught in 1958 "Taekwondo".

 

[puunui]

choi was, arguably one of the biggest thieves. he was a shotokan BB wasnt he?

No, he wasn't, according to GM LEE Won Kuk.

 

[puunui]

Why does the emphasis on kicking mean it's Korean? does no one else kick?

I'm not saying that only korean martial arts have kicks. But certainly the korean martial arts emphasize kicks and have more kicks than say, japanese or okinawan martial arts. Those who constantly state that taekwondo is "nothing more than shotokan" ignore this fact. If taekwondo is nothing more than shotokan, then you would think shotokan would have the same emphasis on kicks that taekwondo does. We know that is not true. Basically what is happening is those 2000 year histories are attempting to explain that cultural emphasis on kicks, which does make taekwondo and other korean martial arts unique. those in the "taekwondo is shotokan" camp ignore the kicks and only focus on the forms and whatnot in giving their opinion. It is the classic blind men touching the elephant scenario.

 

[puunui]

Did someone falsify the true history of tkd? Yes.

Thinking that type of thought will, in my opinion, limit your progress in the korean martial arts.

 

[puunui]

This isn't really something restricted to TKD. After all, Shotokan karate is really Okinawan Te, as packaged for a Japanese market by Funakoshi. And Okinawan Te may be a repackaging of any of several Chinese styles. Which are probably repackagings of other styles, etc. on back.

When Funakoshi Sensei changed the name from toudejutsu (karatejutsu in japanese) to karatedo, he did so because prior to his arrival in Japan, there was already an art called "karate" (empty hand), which was purely japanese in origin and not related to okinawan toudejutsu or okinawan te. This type of karate focused on empty handed self defense techniques. So using twinfist's logic, Funakoshi Sensei "lied" in attempting to turn okinawan toudejutsu into the indigenous japanese based karate.

Over and beyond that, Funakoshi Sensei also changed the names of the kata as well. Naihanchi into tekki and pinan into heian for example. He also gave everyone permission to do the same thing in his autobiography, where he states frankly that he fully expects the name to change again in the future.

And we haven't even discussed other students of Funakoshi Sensei who went on to create their own styles, such as Oyama Sensei's Kyokushinkai or Otsuka Sensei's Wado Ryu, two styles which to me are different from Shotokan.

 

[Earl Weiss]

show me where he said "we took shotokan, modified it, and created a new art from it. But at first, thats all it was, shotokan and the kata? mostly shotokan kata i rearranged"

that would be honest.

This is what he said:
TKD 1965 : Choi Hong Hi

Page 14: " TKD is a version of an ancient form of unarmed combat practiced for many centuries in the orient. (Emphasis Supplied)

"No doubt this art was adoped in many Eastern countries, notably in Japan and China.."

Page 22: "During the Japanese occupation… the hand technique was introduced from both China and Japan…"

Page 173: "Most of these "patterns' have been created and developed by the famous TKD masters isn the course of many centuries……They are classified into three main groups: The Sorim School, Soryong School, and CH'ang Hon School." (Note I think: Sorim & Soryong = Shorin & Shorei.)
The book also contains Hei- An, Bat Sai, En Bi, Ro Hai, kouh Shang Kouh, Tek Ki, Jit Te, Han Getsu, and Ji On.

And this is less honest than Funakoshi's references to Shorin and Shorei, And Kano's reference to Ju Jitsu tyus because?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Twin Fist
[h=2]Re: curious[/h]

yes, these are lies Earl

Originally Posted by Earl Weiss
Well, based upon your OP I would put you in this category or at least think that when it comes to some of what he said would at the very least disagree with him or maybe even call him a lyer or thief.

Chung - Gun and Toi-Gye of Tae Kwon Do Hyung - Jhoon Rhee
1971


Page 10

"TKD is a Korean Martial Art which has been developed through the centuries...."

Page 11

"TKD Hyungs have ben developed and perfected throughout the centuries by outstanding teachers of the art."


Chung - Gun and Toi-Gye of Tae Kwon Do Hyung - Jhoon Rhee
1971


Well, since these are jhoon Rhees statements and you know them to be untrue you would be among some on here who know more than he does, or perhaps views things differently.



​

 

[puunui]

To spread TKD General Choi recruited top talent.

General Choi recruited anyone and everyone who would follow him. He talks about his recruitment efforts in his autobiography.

 

[Twin Fist]

no he didnt, he called it korean karate, or tang soo do

GM Jhoon Rhee did not call what he taught in 1958 "Taekwondo".

 

[Twin Fist]

I'm not saying that only korean martial arts have kicks. But certainly the korean martial arts emphasize kicks and have more kicks than say, japanese or okinawan martial arts. Those who constantly state that taekwondo is "nothing more than shotokan" ignore this fact.

wrong answer.

NO ONE that i have seen says that TODAY tkd is nothing but shotokan.

original tkd? WAS SHOTOKAN and the high and fancy kicks were not a part of the system yet.

today it is its own animal and the cultural concentration on fancy kicks has made it that way

that isnt the point

the point is, TKD history starts, or should start with ONE word

shotokan

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Originally Posted by msmitht

Did someone falsify the true history of tkd? Yes.

Thinking that type of thought will, in my opinion, limit your progress in the korean martial arts.

May I ask how that would limit his progress in the Korean martial arts? Thank you.

 

[puunui]

NO ONE that i have seen says that TODAY tkd is nothing but shotokan.

original tkd? WAS SHOTOKAN and the high and fancy kicks were not a part of the system yet.

Yes it was, from the beginning. GM LEE Won Kuk said that his students were all more interested in kicking, especially flying, jumping kicks. GM UHM Woon Kyu for example, was known for his side kick, including jumping side kick, which he used to beat everyone during sparring in the 1940s. Kicks have always been a large part of Taekwondo, from day one, due to Korea's cultural affinity for kicking.

 

[Earl Weiss]

that isnt the point

the point is, TKD history starts, or should start with ONE word

shotokan

This is way too narrow. It ignores Shotokan's roots.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Again, I think it's all about perspective. Shotokan is a root of TKD, but I wouldn't say that it is the root. Shudokan, Chuan Fa/kung fu/tai chi, Shotokan, indigenous korean techniques/arts, etc.. . are the roots of TSD/TKD. The techniques I've seen from the early days don't look like just shotokan to me. The high kicks were there (I'm not referring to the fancy acrobatic kicks of modern TKD), there were joint locks, throws, etc.. . Many things that, to my knowledge, weren't exactly mainstay for Shotokan.

For example, if the footage is actually from 1956, as the title suggests. There are flying kicks, high kicks, and variations in techniques that differ from Shotokan.

These other videos are some 15-20 years after the formation of the original kwans, so I'm sure things evolved over that time, but these videos from the 1960's certainly don't look like Shotokan.

 

[RobinTKD]

Am I the only person who see's this thread as blatant trolling? Plenty of evidence has been given contrary to your original statement Twin Fist, do us the courtesy of providing us some to support said statement. 'Everyone knows' doesn't constitute evidence. In reference to similar forms, all I've seen are comparisons between Won-Hyo and Pinan-Shodan. Can you find any JMA forms that are the same as Toi-Gye? Hwa-Rang? Gae-Baek? What about the the Taeguks and Palgwe's? Please, I'd like to see them.

 

[Gorilla]

We train in both TKD and Shotokan...lots of things are very similar...and many are quite different. Our lineage to shotkans founder is shorter in tkd than in karate.

 

[Twin Fist]

the refusal of some to admit the truth isnt my problem Robin.

no one has refuted ANYTHING I have claimed.

there is no 2000 year history of tkd, that is a LIE

refute THAT

the TRUE origin of TKD is OTHER arts, (primarily but not limited to shotokan) renamed and given a fake history for the sake of nationalism

refute THAT

those are the only two assertions i have made, and niether has been refuted.

The Palgwe's came later, and most credit them with being the first original set of forms

the taeguks even later

the first forms? were mostly japense forms lifted whole from japanese arts

the truth isnt trolling

Am I the only person who see's this thread as blatant trolling? Plenty of evidence has been given contrary to your original statement Twin Fist, do us the courtesy of providing us some to support said statement. 'Everyone knows' doesn't constitute evidence. In reference to similar forms, all I've seen are comparisons between Won-Hyo and Pinan-Shodan. Can you find any JMA forms that are the same as Toi-Gye? Hwa-Rang? Gae-Baek? What about the the Taeguks and Palgwe's? Please, I'd like to see them.