Concepts Without Combinations?

[shaolinmonkmark]

thinking out of the box, if all we had was traditional "Pancrase" fighters, and he fought a guy on the streets, who would win? street fighter, or pancrase?
Pancrase would have more skills to beat on the street fighter, but street fighter has whatever he has learned/adapted to as well.
Make any sense?

 

[James Kovacich]

The base is how you move not what you move.
Sean

Thats fine for you and maybe others but the base for me are the core techniques, stances, footwork etc that one draws from that eventually leads to "doing without thinking."

That's was what I was trying to express.

 

[Danjo]

The base is how you move not what you move.
Sean

Well, one can't have combinations without incorporating how one moves into them. They are, in fact, preset examples of how one ought to move. Albeit, they are laboratory examples, but it can at least teach the concepts in a reliable way.

To me the base is composed of those combinations or forms (as in the case of older styles) that exemplify the art.

 

[Danjo]

thinking out of the box, if all we had was traditional "Pancrase" fighters, and he fought a guy on the streets, who would win? street fighter, or pancrase?
Pancrase would have more skills to beat on the street fighter, but street fighter has whatever he has learned/adapted to as well.
Make any sense?

Too many variables to answer that question. There are street fighters that would get wailed on and those that wouldn't. By the same token, there are pancrase guys who suck too and those that are highly skilled.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Thats fine for you and maybe others but the base for me are the core techniques, stances, footwork etc that one draws from that eventually leads to "doing without thinking."

That's was what I was trying to express.

I think its more important to be able to complete a pattern without hurting yourself, than to collect "core" patterns. Stances, footwork, et cetera fall under the how.
Sean

 

[MJS]

The base is how you move not what you move.
Sean

And IMO, you need something as a base, otherwise, people are not going to have any idea as to what they're doing. People need something to build off of, before they can think out of the box.

If we think about it, technically, we shouldn't need every single punch technique in the Kenpo system....my God, how many is that again?....before we should start thinking out of the box. I'm always telling my students to not get hung up on the techniques. Sure, learn them, practice them so that you can perform them when its time to test, but when the poop is hitting the fan, dont think about doing that textbook move, think about the concepts and ideas that you've gained from all those techs., put something together and defend yourself.

That, IMHO, is the goal we should all be trying to reach.

 

[Touch Of Death]

And IMO, you need something as a base, otherwise, people are not going to have any idea as to what they're doing. People need something to build off of, before they can think out of the box.

If we think about it, technically, we shouldn't need every single punch technique in the Kenpo system....my God, how many is that again?....before we should start thinking out of the box. I'm always telling my students to not get hung up on the techniques. Sure, learn them, practice them so that you can perform them when its time to test, but when the poop is hitting the fan, dont think about doing that textbook move, think about the concepts and ideas that you've gained from all those techs., put something together and defend yourself.

That, IMHO, is the goal we should all be trying to reach.

Well, the techs are all specific senerios, and they do teach you how to deal with those senerios from any given position, but understanding point of origin, alignment, and the cancellation of H,W,&D, are going to be just as much of a help.
Sean

 

[MJS]

Well, the techs are all specific senerios, and they do teach you how to deal with those senerios from any given position, but understanding point of origin, alignment, and the cancellation of H,W,&D, are going to be just as much of a help.
Sean

H, W, and D should be addressed in those preset techs. as well. However, once people expand past those presets, people should not only be able to figure out how to react to an attack, but they should also be able to figure out how to cancel the HWD with whatever it is they're doing.

 

[Touch Of Death]

H, W, and D should be addressed in those preset techs. as well. However, once people expand past those presets, people should not only be able to figure out how to react to an attack, but they should also be able to figure out how to cancel the HWD with whatever it is they're doing.

Amen!:angel:

 

[Dan Anderson]

There are some that claim that it is not neccessary to teach forms or pre-set techniques or combinations in order to teach an art, but to me that sounds iffy at best.

How would one teach the underlying concept of a martial art without teaching combinations that epitomize those concepts?

Coming in on this way late but my simple answer is "You can't." A student needs a frame of reference and combinations are that. A senior practitioner, however, should be able to take the concept and run with it.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Danjo]

Coming in on this way late but my simple answer is "You can't." A student needs a frame of reference and combinations are that. A senior practitioner, however, should be able to take the concept and run with it.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Thanks and I agree.

Would have replied earlier, but for some reason y work now has this site blocked for "violence". For some reason I can still get on most other MA websites though.

 

[Doc]

"If what you do,
is not what you do,
than what are you doing?" - Ed Parker

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

you need some forms of the equation, to get the answer.
Example-
bake a cake, don't you need the ingredient's to do it??? Then you mix them all up?
You just can't throw a pan in the oven on 350, then expect a nice chocolate cake to come out, then it frosts itself, then a glass of milk automatically "Pours" itself afterwards!
LOL!

 

[Yondanchris]

There are some that claim that it is not neccessary to teach forms or pre-set techniques or combinations in order to teach an art, but to me that sounds iffy at best.

How would one teach the underlying concept of a martial art without teaching combinations that epitomize those concepts?

Thank you for bringing this subject up,

I have thought about this many years ago when I was a lowly blue belt wondering why I had to learn all these techniques and forms.

After some years of teaching I came to the conclusion that their is a symbiotic relationship between the forms/tech and the concepts.

For example:

if you isolate the concepts how does one know how to implement them effectively, it seems to me it would be like a child with a new toy boat without a body of water to float on.

or if you isolate the physical techniques how does one know how to
coordinate and isolate them in a logical/effective manner. Like a Marine given a Gun with bullets then asked to shoot a perfect score.

I believe the reason the majority of martial arts are devided into Belt/Skill levels and that each level has "graded" material introducing concepts and physical techniques is to gradually combine the art as a whole to the student maximizing retention and proper implementation.

Although this realization came many years after my wanderings at Blue Belt I find and see this question coming to the minds of a LOT of underbelts. I am thankful for time and experience validating the time honored tradition that I was taught.

My humble and mostly ignorant .02 cents,

Chris

 

[Yondanchris]

Coming in on this way late but my simple answer is "You can't." A student needs a frame of reference and combinations are that. A senior practitioner, however, should be able to take the concept and run with it.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

I agree,

I was recently asked by a student how Black Belts can string and modify techniques on the fly. I told him it came from "mastering" the basics and knowing the concepts and then being able to use them - Mushin "no nomind" without thinking about it. I am still amazed at what the human mind can do, conciously or un-conciously.

Its always fun watching Masters and Students have this idea "stick" and seeing the "light bulb" go off in their mind and start proactively and reactively "running" with techniques.

My humble and mostly ignorant .02 cents,

Chris