SKK Combinations: Concepts

[14 Kempo]

We've discussed or are discussing aspects of the SKK system, forms application and principles along with combinations against varying attacks, but how about the concepts of the techniques. I believe that at least with the original combinations, the originator(s) were trying to teach us something. I am having trouble with some, trying to understand what that might be. I would like to hear from all you SKK types as to what you might think the concepts could be.

Here we go, let's keep our minds open and see what we all can come up with!!

I'll start with one that we've discussed before, combination #6 ...

A linear kick can defeat a punch.

Yes, I believe it to be that simple and straight forward. A person from the front punches, it matters not if it is a jab, cross, hook, uppercut, etc., throw that kick with proper timing and he can't hit you. The kick can be anywhere from the shin up, with a varying degree of success. Against a jab, the kick would need to be lower for the fact that there is less time to deliver it with the speed of the punch.
A person attacking from behind could run into a back kick, still combination #6, just a different direction. However, it is a linear kick defeating a punch. Same goes for a person approaching from either side, linear side kick defeats a punch. Yes, it could be someone attempting to grab or push as well.

 

[DavidCC]

Moving the target of an attack out of the way - getting off the line of attack. (first taught in #7)

 

[RevIV]

AHHHHHAHHHHHH ----- Matt is going to be killing me and you to Marlon --- lets just cut and paste everything Matt and Marlon already wrote about combo #6 and then go to another one.... with all that being said... this is going to be a great thread. and 14 Kempo, im more busting on Matt and Marlon because at my last seminar Matt said he was going to bring up combo #6 once a week just to bust my chops. well i need to go start my first class.. a mere 100 degrees out.

 

[14 Kempo]

AHHHHHAHHHHHH ----- Matt is going to be killing me and you to Marlon --- lets just cut and paste everything Matt and Marlon already wrote about combo #6 and then go to another one.... with all that being said... this is going to be a great thread. and 14 Kempo, im more busting on Matt and Marlon because at my last seminar Matt said he was going to bring up combo #6 once a week just to bust my chops. well i need to go start my first class.. a mere 100 degrees out.

LOL ... The previous coverage of #6 is exactly why I started with it, to get it out of the way.

DavidCC brought up #7, thanks David, any thoughts?

 

[14 Kempo]

Moving the target of an attack out of the way - getting off the line of attack. (first taught in #7)

I see it the same way, get off the line and deliver a linear kick. It doesn't matter what direction is taken to get off the line, just move and deliver a linear kick. Also can be seen as being used when you're too late to use #6 and need to either block (a variation of 6) or 'move off the line'.

 

[marlon]

SKK is the creation / personal take of GM Villari. Yes, there are clear historical paths...and many unclear ones. yet there is a distinctive identity to Villari SKK. Leaving aside bad instructors and bad business practices and looking at it as a system, what are the concepts of skk and how are they represented in the combinations? How does this change how the earlier combinations are done as opposed to the way they were originally done? What are the differences in the combinations brought in or made up / created by GM Villari and the ones he learned from GM Cerio? What do these differences say about SKK?

Respectfully,
Marlon
p.s. i am not 100% clear on the differences btwn concepts and priniciples in this context

 

[marlon]

AHHHHHAHHHHHH ----- Matt is going to be killing me and you to Marlon --- lets just cut and paste everything Matt and Marlon already wrote about combo #6 and then go to another one.... with all that being said... this is going to be a great thread. and 14 Kempo, im more busting on Matt and Marlon because at my last seminar Matt said he was going to bring up combo #6 once a week just to bust my chops. well i need to go start my first class.. a mere 100 degrees out.

ah, master Dwire, how about the concept of eliminating weapons in #6?



Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

AHHHHHAHHHHHH ----- Matt is going to be killing me and you to Marlon --- lets just cut and paste everything Matt and Marlon already wrote about combo #6 and then go to another one.... with all that being said... this is going to be a great thread. and 14 Kempo, im more busting on Matt and Marlon because at my last seminar Matt said he was going to bring up combo #6 once a week just to bust my chops. well i need to go start my first class.. a mere 100 degrees out.

Combination 6 can definitely be seen to explore the concept of cover your entry high while attacking low.

also a block is a strike and a strike is a block


also hidden limb destruction

also...!!!!

me likes you Jesse!!

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[DavidCC]

also a block is a strike and a strike is a block
also hidden limb destruction

I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.

And nobody needs to be talking about their "hidden limbs", this is a clean forum.:btg: ROFL

I mean, I know you can insert anything you want into any technique, but does that mean that the specific technique teaches that particular concept? I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`

I am having trouble with some, trying to understand what that might be

What I don't understand is why some of you New England guys don't know some of this stuff!! Take no offense please - let me explain - I am not cirticizong your efforts or training!. See, I'm stuck out here in Nebraska under a guy who most of you would consider a pariah or worse, who has no up-line in SKK. So it is reasonable that WE might have to be discovering some of these things on our own. But you guys have solid lineages to Villari, Cerio, Pesare (Nohelty, Bryant, Ingargiola, Cunningham, Corrigan, etc) So why aren't you asking them?? Assuming that the depth of knoweldge we are trying to bring to light in a thread like this EVEN EXISTS wouldn't these guys have that information? And if they have it, why isn't it getting passed down to you?

I'm starting to wonder if we aren't grasping at shadows here.

yeah we can look at the techniques and say "I learned this from it" but that in no way implies that Sonny Gas or Fred Villari or anyone in between or since STARTED WITH that idea and created the technique to showcase it - which is, I think, an underlying assumption in this topic. This might be why there are less than 10 posts here and we basically have 2-3 concepts listed so far after 2 days of thinking about it, maybe?

 

[14 Kempo]

I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.

And nobody needs to be talking about their "hidden limbs", this is a clean forum.:btg: ROFL

I mean, I know you can insert anything you want into any technique, but does that mean that the specific technique teaches that particular concept? I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`



What I don't understand is why some of you New England guys don't know some of this stuff!! Take no offense please - let me explain - I am not cirticizong your efforts or training!. See, I'm stuck out here in Nebraska under a guy who most of you would consider a pariah or worse, who has no up-line in SKK. So it is reasonable that WE might have to be discovering some of these things on our own. But you guys have solid lineages to Villari, Cerio, Pesare (Nohelty, Bryant, Ingargiola, Cunningham, Corrigan, etc) So why aren't you asking them?? Assuming that the depth of knoweldge we are trying to bring to light in a thread like this EVEN EXISTS wouldn't these guys have that information? And if they have it, why isn't it getting passed down to you?

I'm starting to wonder if we aren't grasping at shadows here.

yeah we can look at the techniques and say "I learned this from it" but that in no way implies that Sonny Gas or Fred Villari or anyone in between or since STARTED WITH that idea and created the technique to showcase it - which is, I think, an underlying assumption in this topic. This might be why there are less than 10 posts here and we basically have 2-3 concepts listed so far after 2 days of thinking about it, maybe?

Good points David.

At least out here in the West, we are far removed from the teachings of any of the aforementioned Masters and Grand Masters. Due to the size of the organizations here in the West, our lineage is watered down and alot of the original concepts and thoughts got thrown to the wayside. Heck, in one of the offshoots, I was told not to worry about history, cause they were all dead. Wonder why I left the organization. Well, with that type of comment, you can understand why some of us seek knowledge elsewhere.

I am now with an instructor who passes down knowledge freely, but even then I seek further knowledge, other thoughts, other points of view. I do not expect to get to the one and only concept of any technique on a forum, but having an open mind and reading other's input, lights that bulb so-to-speak. I am taught to think not just regurgitate movement.

 

[marlon]

I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.

And nobody needs to be talking about their "hidden limbs", this is a clean forum.:btg: ROFL

I mean, I know you can insert anything you want into any technique, but does that mean that the specific technique teaches that particular concept? I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`



What I don't understand is why some of you New England guys don't know some of this stuff!! Take no offense please - let me explain - I am not cirticizong your efforts or training!. See, I'm stuck out here in Nebraska under a guy who most of you would consider a pariah or worse, who has no up-line in SKK. So it is reasonable that WE might have to be discovering some of these things on our own. But you guys have solid lineages to Villari, Cerio, Pesare (Nohelty, Bryant, Ingargiola, Cunningham, Corrigan, etc) So why aren't you asking them?? Assuming that the depth of knoweldge we are trying to bring to light in a thread like this EVEN EXISTS wouldn't these guys have that information? And if they have it, why isn't it getting passed down to you?

I'm starting to wonder if we aren't grasping at shadows here.

yeah we can look at the techniques and say "I learned this from it" but that in no way implies that Sonny Gas or Fred Villari or anyone in between or since STARTED WITH that idea and created the technique to showcase it - which is, I think, an underlying assumption in this topic. This might be why there are less than 10 posts here and we basically have 2-3 concepts listed so far after 2 days of thinking about it, maybe?

David, i was having a little fun with Jesse, there is another similar thread with quite a few posts and that may account for the low volume, somewhat; we initially teach #6 with a double block (#4 then #1 then kick and later drop the blocks). Also, i think all of us have great insturctors who we learn from and come here mainly to discuss topicws and express our point of views and share knowledge and this is what the idea of this thread is about. Lastly, in defence of the east coast crew, this thread was started by someone from San Diego, not the east coast...

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[14 Kempo]

Yes, I'm in San Diego. Yes, I asked a question. Yes, I am trained here and as stated prior, may lack some direct contact to Masters and Grand Masters of the SKK system, but it doesn't mean that SKK in Nebraska, Missouri, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, or anywhere else is any better or worse. This is what some refer to as "Close Minded" in my book. A forum where asking questions is wrong, hmmm, what's wrong with this picture.

 

[DavidCC]

I didn't mean to imply that it's wrong to be asking these questions...

I'm all for gettign information wherever you can. That's why I've done some BJJ and SL-4 for example.

But SKK is fairly new and the originators, for the most part, are still alive, even if you trace back to 3 different styles (NCK, KGS, Kaju).

If you look at some American kenpo reference amterial, there are long lists of "What this technique teaches". Why isn't there a similar document for SKK?

 

[marlon]

Yes, I'm in San Diego. Yes, I asked a question. Yes, I am trained here and as stated prior, may lack some direct contact to Masters and Grand Masters of the SKK system, but it doesn't mean that SKK in Nebraska, Missouri, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, or anywhere else is any better or worse. This is what some refer to as "Close Minded" in my book. A forum where asking questions is wrong, hmmm, what's wrong with this picture.

i hope you did not take offence to my reference to David that a west coast person started the thread. It was a friendly jab at David b/c he mentioned the east coast people ...nothing more. i ask quesions all the tiem and love MT b/c we can freely ask things and have access to great people to share with.

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[DavidCC]

So wherre are all our NE guys today? hopefully they are out tracking down FV and GP to get the answers we need !!! :lfao:


But anyway, enough of my distracitng topic, let's get back to the OP topic.

After we teach #6 and #7, we teach something we call "Grab #6" - attack is a 2 hand shoulder grab from behind. Step back, wrap over the arms with right - locking out attacker's arms, punch to floating ribs. Does anyone else do a tech like this? fi not then what is the 3rd tech taught in your systems? and what concepts do you want it to convey?

 

[JTKenpo]

So wherre are all our NE guys today? hopefully they are out tracking down FV and GP to get the answers we need !!! :lfao:
quote]

New England guy right here!!!

First some of the people you mentioned as masters are on this forum yet we rarely hear any other input then I agree with some of you.

Secondly I thought thats what we were doing here taking what we learned and bouncing it off other martial artists? What one instructor may learn is different then another and there for passed down differently.

Thirdly, and this is the most unfortunate, I don't think the "secrets club" has been broken down yet. Though people on this forum are doing alot to get that info out. Matt's info page, these very threads, so on and so forth.

Lastly as for us East Coast guys being closest in proximaty to these gentlemen, in this day and age we are all as close as our keyboards. Sometimes also geographic closeness can cause seeming rivalry or competition which may stop or slow down the sharing process.

David thank you for this and the prior post because it gives me a chance to say publicly something I have wanted to for some time now. There will never (and in my opinion should never) be one organization that "runs" SKK, BUT that doesn't mean there can't be a network of black belts that freely work out with each other in order to share knowledge. I know that I do not get to work out with peers any where neer what I would like to or should do.

So if any of you East Coast guys would like to start to get together on a monthly basis possibly rotating schools for a work out I would certainly be game to host and travel for such occasions.

Back to the post.....as far as my instructor learned this concept from this head master isn't it more productive to work the material with a logical progression and find these concepts, principles, and applications for ourselves (well with a little help from a friend or instructor anyway)?

 

[JTKenpo]

Conceptually #3 and #6 are the same technique using different range and weapon. #3 teaches to slip the jab in close range and use a punch low while #6 teaches to slip the jab at longer range and use a kick low.

The same can be said with #2 and #5 although different in their approach again this thread is about concept. #2 uses short range while #5 adds the longer range kick.

 

[DavidCC]

Lastly as for us East Coast guys being closest in proximaty to these gentlemen, in this day and age we are all as close as our keyboards. Sometimes also geographic closeness can cause seeming rivalry or competition which may stop or slow down the sharing process.

I can't even get anyone in Villari's organization to answer a simple email other than "buy our DVD". So my hope was that the direct transmission of these ideas would be possible, from teacher to student.

I can understand how the application of a 100 year old kata might be lost... but Sonny Gas and SGM Pesare are alive and well, there shoud be no reason that the stuff they invented be "lost" already. I'm starting to believe it was never in there, at least not explicitly. SKK is not transmitted verbally, it is taught kinetically. Which is OK, it just makes it harder for us to trade information at a distance.

David thank you for this and the prior post because it gives me a chance to say publicly something I have wanted to for some time now. There will never (and in my opinion should never) be one organization that "runs" SKK, BUT that doesn't mean there can't be a network of black belts that freely work out with each other in order to share knowledge. I know that I do not get to work out with peers any where neer what I would like to or should do.

So if any of you East Coast guys would like to start to get together on a monthly basis possibly rotating schools for a work out I would certainly be game to host and travel for such occasions.

sounds like a good idea, lucky guys...
www.budocamponline.com think about it....

Back to the post.....as far as my instructor learned this concept from this head master isn't it more productive to work the material with a logical progression and find these concepts, principles, and applications for ourselves (well with a little help from a friend or instructor anyway)?

I'm not sure what the optimal balance is. yes some degree of discovery is valuable and necessary; but spend any amount of time at KenpoTalk and it becomes clear that you can go too far in the opposite direction too...

 

[14 Kempo]

So wherre are all our NE guys today? hopefully they are out tracking down FV and GP to get the answers we need !!! :lfao:


But anyway, enough of my distracitng topic, let's get back to the OP topic.

After we teach #6 and #7, we teach something we call "Grab #6" - attack is a 2 hand shoulder grab from behind. Step back, wrap over the arms with right - locking out attacker's arms, punch to floating ribs. Does anyone else do a tech like this? fi not then what is the 3rd tech taught in your systems? and what concepts do you want it to convey?

We do a similar technique, it is simply called a rear shoulder grab. We teach this technique at yellow belt. Slight differences, we loosen them up with a back kick to the shin, or stomp to the foot. We then step back with the other foot, wrapping over the arms and deliver a palm strike to the facial area.

 

[14 Kempo]

i hope you did not take offence to my reference to David that a west coast person started the thread. It was a friendly jab at David b/c he mentioned the east coast people ...nothing more. i ask quesions all the tiem and love MT b/c we can freely ask things and have access to great people to share with.

respectfully,
Marlon

No, not at all, just trying to make a point.