SKK Combinations: Concepts

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion' started by 14 Kempo, Jun 10, 2008.

  1. 14 Kempo

    14 Kempo Grandmaster

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    We've discussed or are discussing aspects of the SKK system, forms application and principles along with combinations against varying attacks, but how about the concepts of the techniques. I believe that at least with the original combinations, the originator(s) were trying to teach us something. I am having trouble with some, trying to understand what that might be. I would like to hear from all you SKK types as to what you might think the concepts could be.

    Here we go, let's keep our minds open and see what we all can come up with!!

    I'll start with one that we've discussed before, combination #6 ...

    A linear kick can defeat a punch.

    Yes, I believe it to be that simple and straight forward. A person from the front punches, it matters not if it is a jab, cross, hook, uppercut, etc., throw that kick with proper timing and he can't hit you. The kick can be anywhere from the shin up, with a varying degree of success. Against a jab, the kick would need to be lower for the fact that there is less time to deliver it with the speed of the punch.
    A person attacking from behind could run into a back kick, still combination #6, just a different direction. However, it is a linear kick defeating a punch. Same goes for a person approaching from either side, linear side kick defeats a punch. Yes, it could be someone attempting to grab or push as well.
     
  2. DavidCC

    DavidCC Master of Arts

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    Moving the target of an attack out of the way - getting off the line of attack. (first taught in #7)
     
  3. RevIV

    RevIV Black Belt

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    AHHHHHAHHHHHH ----- Matt is going to be killing me and you to Marlon --- lets just cut and paste everything Matt and Marlon already wrote about combo #6 and then go to another one.... with all that being said... this is going to be a great thread. and 14 Kempo, im more busting on Matt and Marlon because at my last seminar Matt said he was going to bring up combo #6 once a week just to bust my chops. well i need to go start my first class.. a mere 100 degrees out.
     
  4. 14 Kempo

    14 Kempo Grandmaster

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    LOL ... The previous coverage of #6 is exactly why I started with it, to get it out of the way.

    DavidCC brought up #7, thanks David, any thoughts?
     
  5. 14 Kempo

    14 Kempo Grandmaster

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    I see it the same way, get off the line and deliver a linear kick. It doesn't matter what direction is taken to get off the line, just move and deliver a linear kick. Also can be seen as being used when you're too late to use #6 and need to either block (a variation of 6) or 'move off the line'.
     
  6. marlon

    marlon Master Black Belt

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    SKK is the creation / personal take of GM Villari. Yes, there are clear historical paths...and many unclear ones. yet there is a distinctive identity to Villari SKK. Leaving aside bad instructors and bad business practices and looking at it as a system, what are the concepts of skk and how are they represented in the combinations? How does this change how the earlier combinations are done as opposed to the way they were originally done? What are the differences in the combinations brought in or made up / created by GM Villari and the ones he learned from GM Cerio? What do these differences say about SKK?

    Respectfully,
    Marlon
    p.s. i am not 100% clear on the differences btwn concepts and priniciples in this context
     
  7. marlon

    marlon Master Black Belt

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    ah, master Dwire, how about the concept of eliminating weapons in #6?

    :)

    Respectfully,
    Marlon
     
  8. marlon

    marlon Master Black Belt

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    Combination 6 can definitely be seen to explore the concept of cover your entry high while attacking low.

    also a block is a strike and a strike is a block


    also hidden limb destruction

    also...!!!!

    me likes you Jesse!! :)

    Respectfully,
    Marlon
     
  9. DavidCC

    DavidCC Master of Arts

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    I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.

    And nobody needs to be talking about their "hidden limbs", this is a clean forum.:btg: ROFL

    I mean, I know you can insert anything you want into any technique, but does that mean that the specific technique teaches that particular concept? I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`

    What I don't understand is why some of you New England guys don't know some of this stuff!! Take no offense please - let me explain - I am not cirticizong your efforts or training!. See, I'm stuck out here in Nebraska under a guy who most of you would consider a pariah or worse, who has no up-line in SKK. So it is reasonable that WE might have to be discovering some of these things on our own. But you guys have solid lineages to Villari, Cerio, Pesare (Nohelty, Bryant, Ingargiola, Cunningham, Corrigan, etc) So why aren't you asking them?? Assuming that the depth of knoweldge we are trying to bring to light in a thread like this EVEN EXISTS wouldn't these guys have that information? And if they have it, why isn't it getting passed down to you?

    I'm starting to wonder if we aren't grasping at shadows here.

    yeah we can look at the techniques and say "I learned this from it" but that in no way implies that Sonny Gas or Fred Villari or anyone in between or since STARTED WITH that idea and created the technique to showcase it - which is, I think, an underlying assumption in this topic. This might be why there are less than 10 posts here and we basically have 2-3 concepts listed so far after 2 days of thinking about it, maybe?
     
  10. 14 Kempo

    14 Kempo Grandmaster

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    Good points David.

    At least out here in the West, we are far removed from the teachings of any of the aforementioned Masters and Grand Masters. Due to the size of the organizations here in the West, our lineage is watered down and alot of the original concepts and thoughts got thrown to the wayside. Heck, in one of the offshoots, I was told not to worry about history, cause they were all dead. Wonder why I left the organization. Well, with that type of comment, you can understand why some of us seek knowledge elsewhere.

    I am now with an instructor who passes down knowledge freely, but even then I seek further knowledge, other thoughts, other points of view. I do not expect to get to the one and only concept of any technique on a forum, but having an open mind and reading other's input, lights that bulb so-to-speak. I am taught to think not just regurgitate movement.
     
  11. marlon

    marlon Master Black Belt

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    David, i was having a little fun with Jesse, there is another similar thread with quite a few posts and that may account for the low volume, somewhat; we initially teach #6 with a double block (#4 then #1 then kick and later drop the blocks). Also, i think all of us have great insturctors who we learn from and come here mainly to discuss topicws and express our point of views and share knowledge and this is what the idea of this thread is about. Lastly, in defence of the east coast crew, this thread was started by someone from San Diego, not the east coast... :)

    Respectfully,
    Marlon
     
  12. 14 Kempo

    14 Kempo Grandmaster

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    Yes, I'm in San Diego. Yes, I asked a question. Yes, I am trained here and as stated prior, may lack some direct contact to Masters and Grand Masters of the SKK system, but it doesn't mean that SKK in Nebraska, Missouri, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, or anywhere else is any better or worse. This is what some refer to as "Close Minded" in my book. A forum where asking questions is wrong, hmmm, what's wrong with this picture.
     
  13. DavidCC

    DavidCC Master of Arts

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    I didn't mean to imply that it's wrong to be asking these questions...

    I'm all for gettign information wherever you can. That's why I've done some BJJ and SL-4 for example.

    But SKK is fairly new and the originators, for the most part, are still alive, even if you trace back to 3 different styles (NCK, KGS, Kaju).

    If you look at some American kenpo reference amterial, there are long lists of "What this technique teaches". Why isn't there a similar document for SKK?
     
  14. marlon

    marlon Master Black Belt

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    i hope you did not take offence to my reference to David that a west coast person started the thread. It was a friendly jab at David b/c he mentioned the east coast people ...nothing more. i ask quesions all the tiem and love MT b/c we can freely ask things and have access to great people to share with.

    respectfully,
    Marlon
     
  15. DavidCC

    DavidCC Master of Arts

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    So wherre are all our NE guys today? hopefully they are out tracking down FV and GP to get the answers we need !!! :lfao:


    But anyway, enough of my distracitng topic, let's get back to the OP topic.

    After we teach #6 and #7, we teach something we call "Grab #6" - attack is a 2 hand shoulder grab from behind. Step back, wrap over the arms with right - locking out attacker's arms, punch to floating ribs. Does anyone else do a tech like this? fi not then what is the 3rd tech taught in your systems? and what concepts do you want it to convey?
     
  16. JTKenpo

    JTKenpo Purple Belt

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  17. JTKenpo

    JTKenpo Purple Belt

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    Conceptually #3 and #6 are the same technique using different range and weapon. #3 teaches to slip the jab in close range and use a punch low while #6 teaches to slip the jab at longer range and use a kick low.

    The same can be said with #2 and #5 although different in their approach again this thread is about concept. #2 uses short range while #5 adds the longer range kick.
     
  18. DavidCC

    DavidCC Master of Arts

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    I can't even get anyone in Villari's organization to answer a simple email other than "buy our DVD". So my hope was that the direct transmission of these ideas would be possible, from teacher to student.

    I can understand how the application of a 100 year old kata might be lost... but Sonny Gas and SGM Pesare are alive and well, there shoud be no reason that the stuff they invented be "lost" already. I'm starting to believe it was never in there, at least not explicitly. SKK is not transmitted verbally, it is taught kinetically. Which is OK, it just makes it harder for us to trade information at a distance.



    sounds like a good idea, lucky guys...
    www.budocamponline.com think about it....

    I'm not sure what the optimal balance is. yes some degree of discovery is valuable and necessary; but spend any amount of time at KenpoTalk and it becomes clear that you can go too far in the opposite direction too...
     
  19. 14 Kempo

    14 Kempo Grandmaster

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    We do a similar technique, it is simply called a rear shoulder grab. We teach this technique at yellow belt. Slight differences, we loosen them up with a back kick to the shin, or stomp to the foot. We then step back with the other foot, wrapping over the arms and deliver a palm strike to the facial area.
     
  20. 14 Kempo

    14 Kempo Grandmaster

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    No, not at all, just trying to make a point.123
     

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