Chin Na

[nlmantis]

...The opponant grabs your wrist, you rotate at the elbow basically bringing the palm of your hand up and facing you. You then use your other hand to reach around in front of your raise arm adn grab their hand. Your fingers should really be placed at their knuckles. Basically then you "Peel the Orange" peeling their fingers off your wrist and continuing the circle to effectivly perform a wrist lock.

It can be used off of a punch as well.

7sm

I don't quite follow this one and couldn't find a reference to "peeling the orange" in Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming's book on Shaolin Chin-Na so a couple of questions on this one:

- Is this off a same-side wrist grab, or cross-hand?
- How do you secure the opponent's grab before rotating your hand, since why would opponent keep grab in place if his attack is being parried.
- With a punch, since the fingers are closed, are you still peeling fingers somehow? Or is it the wrist lock that you can apply to the punch?

 

[7starmantis]

I don't quite follow this one and couldn't find a reference to "peeling the orange" in Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming's book on Shaolin Chin-Na so a couple of questions on this one:

Sorry, I must have missed this post somehow. Yeah, I didn't do a very good job of explaning myself. Lets see...

- Is this off a same-side wrist grab, or cross-hand?

It actually can work from either side. Which side its from determines whether your on the inside or outside gate when apllying the technique.

- How do you secure the opponent's grab before rotating your hand, since why would opponent keep grab in place if his attack is being parried.

Well, you can secure the opponents hand, but it should be done with such timing that you really dont have to secure the hand. If they release the grab then you move on to something else. The only problem I have with securing the opponents hand with your other hand is that you got two hands tied up with their one hand, that could be a bad situation. If someone grabs your wrist, they are going to be grasping pretty tight, and more than likely going to be putting some force behind the grab. You have to have enough feel to move with thier force and make the circle smaller to perform the technique without securing their hand. Of course the defense is a very simple, let go.

- With a punch, since the fingers are closed, are you still peeling fingers somehow? Or is it the wrist lock that you can apply to the punch?

Your correct, with a punch it is a little different, your more or less using the thumb of thier punch as your lever and applying the wrist lock from there, but you have to yield and follow their energy into a circle if you want to be successful against a punch. It takes perfect timing.

Does that help at all? The "Peel the Orange" may be a KFE thing, but your basically using your wrist movement after an underhand grab on thier fingers to apply the chin na. Its very much about your wrists in this technique.

7sm

 

[nlmantis]

Thanks for the clarifications, 7star.

 

[7starmantis]

What do you guys think of applying chin na during a real "combat" situation? Do you think its possible, probable, or even effective? Is chin na more useful from a grabbing-controll type situation; or can it be used in pure "street self defense" just as effectively?

7sm

 

[clfsean]

Yeah it can be applied in real combat no doubt, but the trick is you gotta make the opponent not worry about the lock you're trying to put on him. Soften them up, change the focus of the attention in a myriad of ways... like a knee kick, a right cross, a open handed slap to the face is my personal favorite from my days in the Bujinkan... then you should be able to apply the lock with some success.

To think we can do a "Segal" & just grab somebody & make it go isn't a reality grounded mindset. IMHO...

 

[pete]

my understanding is that chin na is not a street self defense on its own, but very effective as an addition to your primary style. dr yang, jwing-ming teaches that chin na alone is very difficult to use against striking arts, and that its better to use it after the strike has been blocked, parried, and intercepted. then chin na can be used to control and set up the attack.

sean is correct about getting soft...it gives them less to hold on to.

master ting teaches that you must also use your whole body to control the attackers whole body.

using your arms is not enough, you must use your whole body... that allows you to move with softness and gives that element of surprise sean is talking about.

also, controling their joint is not enough, even controling several joints (wrist, elbow, shoulder) is not enough... you must control their whole body down through the spine and control their center... then you can move him.

i'll get there someday!

pete

 

[Brother John]

using your arms is not enough, you must use your whole body... pete

Sounds logical...because it's just like it is with a striking art. We fight with our whole body, not just the limbs.
:asian:
Your Brother
John

 

[pete]

...because it's just like it is with a striking art

similar, yet different... in striking art we do use our whole body to generate power, however that power is then laser focused onto (or maybe through) the point of contact.

with chin na, you do not want to focus your efforts on, say, the wrist thats being locked... rather you want to control the elbow through the wrist, then up through the shoulder, down the spine, through each vertebrae, and ultimately controling his center.

pete

 

[Brother John]

similar, yet different... in striking art we do use our whole body to generate power, however that power is then laser focused onto (or maybe through) the point of contact.

with chin na, you do not want to focus your efforts on, say, the wrist thats being locked... rather you want to control the elbow through the wrist, then up through the shoulder, down the spine, through each vertebrae, and ultimately controling his center.

pete

Very true Pete, and I like how you put things.

But I think that if you look at it even further, the similarities may strike you. (PUN intended)
For instance, in striking I may focus my energy through a target....but often it is in order to set up the body for further strikes, by doing this I manage their dimensions (Height-Width-Depth). SO I may strike their limb a certain way (as in "Alternating Maces' " first block...block/strike same diff right?...this motion "Hits" his arms but controls his body to open him up for the striking.).
To me the control that is saught in Chin-Na and related techniques is MOST similar to the Kenpo Principle of "Contact Manipulation". Like with the block I mentioned... it's contact alters the formation of the rest of his body in order to open further doors of opportunity. Also: I often tell my students that when we strike the torso... strike toward the spine, as it is the A#1 vertical support of the upperbody. Force projection and contact manipulation require that you use your whole body to manage/control/manipulate their whole body.

That's kinda what I meant by their similarities.

Your Brother
John

 

[pete]

good point bro! so maybe the difference is in the time element associated with the control from a strike vs from a lock?

how's this for deja vu all over again...
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=218917&postcount=9

pete

 

[Brother John]

good point bro! so maybe the difference is in the time element associated with the control from a strike vs from a lock?

how's this for deja vu all over again...
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=218917&postcount=9

pete

Great minds think alike my Brother!
:asian:

agreed, the time element is the difference, generally speaking.

Your Brother
John

 

[7starmantis]

Very good points, however not all chin na is used to control the opponent, there are chin na techniques for control, just like there are chin na techniques to attack.

7sm

 

[Brother John]

Very good points, however not all chin na is used to control the opponent, there are chin na techniques for control, just like there are chin na techniques to attack.

7sm

I see.
But in this 'attack' isn't the desired end result to 'control' the adversary? Doesn't the name "Chin-Na" basically translate to "seize and control"? At least, that's what I thought it meant.

Your Brother
John

 

[7starmantis]

I see.
But in this 'attack' isn't the desired end result to 'control' the adversary? Doesn't the name "Chin-Na" basically translate to "seize and control"? At least, that's what I thought it meant.

Your Brother
John

Thats true, it does basically translate to "sieze" and "control". That is probably the main focus at least of the less advanced techniques. Most true practitioners of chin na will agree with Yang Jwing-Ming that there are four basic categories. While most rely on grabbing, locking, or twisting, there are strikes involved in chin na which are usually aimed to cause paralysis or death. In the highly advanced techniques there are those techniques who purpose is to maim or kill.
I guess there is a seperation, there are those techniques whose end result is control, while there are those techniques whose end result is death, or serious injury. The chin na that focus on "sealing" the breath or blood flow are not seeking control unless you define control as control of the attacker which would include death.

That make any sense? Upon re-reading it, I believe I sounded a little like Yogi Berra.

7sm

 

[Brother John]

perfect sense, Yogi.

Thank you

Your Brother
John

 

[Blooming Lotus]

My favorite is one where the opponent punches, we slap it with the opposite hand (if they punch with left we block with right) bring the other hand under and around and grab the wrist and elbow, pull their arm in and push our elbow over theres, essentially pushing all of our weight onto their locked out elbow and pulling them down. When done fast enough - can snap their elbow.

Love that ! There's a similar tech I learnt from a southern shoalin shifu in China recently that begins the same, but instead of grabbing the wrist with the other, you brush block with your opposite forearm first about midforearm of opponent grab a little higher on same arm, use their inertia to turn the strike and their body toward them and to your outside and follow through with your rear fist to open up a solid and clear strike to pratically anywhere you want to land it from their head to torso etc ....... and some standing leg holds/ takedowns give it another new dimension to play with again! ( btw, the officially plant site was a half fist rap to temple, but do not try this at home with fullcontact!! For a variation, step into it and go for an outer or rear shoulder strike)

While we're here and on chin na, did a little training in sthn china with chin na cop-babes a couple of weeks back and was really surprised that for all my lack of training at the time, their speed was fairly unimpressive. Do you guys do speed training???....and what do you do???

BL

 

[pete]

Has anybody gone through the 6 levels of Chin Na training with Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming?

I've taken Level-1 in May '04, a mini workshop on Taiji Chin Na over the summer, and just completed Level-2 last weekend. Looking forward to Level-3 next April. I'm also lucky enough to train with a study group in NYC between the weekend seminars.

I've done some chin na as tai chi applications with Master William Ting, and explored joint locks as its found in Kenpo techniques, but Dr Yang's stuff really CRANKS! Much different level of PAIN involved with the CONTROL... Pass the Dit Dat Jow!!!

pete.

 

[7starmantis]

My school incorporates alot of chin na in our normal curriculm so I've never really actively looked for other chin na training, but I do have his book. Its really well written and very good.

7sm

 

[pete]

his books and videos are excellent, but you do have to feel it to believe. it such a subtle skill, and real hard to get good at...

 

[Blooming Lotus]

No. And I've only ever heard his name mentioned in regard to qigong, but the guy definately has an extremely solid reputation in both the martial and medical communities.

Here's a link to a google on his name as above but in chinese jwing is written in pinyin as jun , and G's in the ing aren't always pronounced, so you might want to try varying your spelling and see what different links you pull up.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=r.Yang+Jwing-+Ming&btnG=Search&meta=


So back to speed...... do you train for that and how ??