Can a martial art kills?

[lklawson]

All martial arts (speaking for traditional) were designed for killing people and originated from wars.

No, that's not true at all. JitteJutsu has long been regarded as being intended "to enable non-lethal disarmament and apprehension of criminals who were usually carrying a sword." And the European Smallsword or "Court Sword" is a Civilian Self Defense weapon, typically considered poorly suited to "war," often used for civilian dueling, and often believed to have been developed independent from "war" weapons as a result of prohibitions.

Today, we don't practice like masters of old times and there are lots of philosophies about harmony, spirituality etc.

Some people do, some don't, and the "masters of old" were want to write and teach a lot about philosophy and harmony.

With social development, we no longer have the need to use martial arts for killing and train only for defending ourselves.

This is wrong. There are still plenty of people training for straight up killing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[GreatUniter]

No, that's not true at all. JitteJutsu has long been regarded as being intended "to enable non-lethal disarmament and apprehension of criminals who were usually carrying a sword." And the European Smallsword or "Court Sword" is a Civilian Self Defense weapon, typically considered poorly suited to "war," often used for civilian dueling, and often believed to have been developed independent from "war" weapons as a result of prohibitions.

Some people do, some don't, and the "masters of old" were want to write and teach a lot about philosophy and harmony.

This is wrong. There are still plenty of people training for straight up killing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

1. What is the origin of JitteJutsu? We talk about first origins of traditional martial arts. From what I learned, core element of TMA are indeed for killing people. We talk about martial arts that have long history (1000 or more years). Take this for example: there were wars on the east and when the innocent villagers were attacked from soldiers (in their free time) or bandit raids, it means that villagers that started to train themselves only train to defend themselves (we know that most martial arts are born within the villagers to survive)? If they won against the soldiers and they survived, it mean that they eventually couldn't come back to attack again? Or bandit raids, if bandit raid is stopped and all bandits survived, so they run and won't attack ever again? Usually there were big problems especially with bandits, where people in order to survive killed bandits (I won't go so far for "poor soldiers") to set examples and to be sure that bandits won't come back and harass again. Also, "men" at that time, all problems between themselves, they solved with duels (usually death duels). Street fights often ended up with killing the opponent. Even there are a lot of martial arts and systems (some of them modern) designed for killing (for example: silat, muay boran, kapu kuialua, kalaripayattu - I strongly recommend that you should read some history (if you didn't) about these arts). I'm so disappointed that there are not so many information about martial arts on the internet and books in pdf that we can read online. Usually we start from what our teachers say or what some famous guys said (but believe me, there are plenty of great masters that are not so well known, even so there are plenty of great masters that are famous).

2. Give me example of one that nowadays train like old masters? Who right now have so much time as to train 12 hours a day like masters of old (I don't say that there doesn't exist someone that train long - personally, I know a guy that trained for 5-6 hours a day in his younger days)? Yeah, masters of old, liked to preach about philosophy, spirituality etc, but when? In their older years. Read some history on prominent martial artists of east culture and you will see when they "become so wise" as to preach all the harmony and all stuff - with all experience that they gathered in their younger days (there are still exceptions, like in everything). Read about their younger days and see what was the usual ending of martial art combat on the streets.

3. Yes, I absolutely agree on your point that there are people that train for killing.

P.S. Don't get me wrong, all this stuff are from what I have learned. Feel free to send me something that will prove me otherwise. Don't know if it's right or wrong, but here is something from the internet that I lastly read about this subject.
6 Great Martial Arts for Killing a Man With Your Bare Hands

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Don't know if it's right or wrong, but here is something from the internet that I lastly read about this subject.
6 Great Martial Arts for Killing a Man With Your Bare Hands

Most things like that you find are very over-hyped. Most arts can equip someone to kill. With the possible exception of systems taught directly to military (not the civilian off-shoots), none I'm aware of focus on killing except weapon arts. And the few empty-hand instructors I've seen that talked a lot about killing with bare hands were full of nonsense.

 

[lklawson]

1. What is the origin of JitteJutsu?

The commonly cited origin is the need for a weapon that wasn't a weapon. The Jitte was never intended for use in "war."

We talk about first origins of traditional martial arts.

"We" do? Which "traditional martial arts?" Heck which "martial arts?"

From what I learned, core element of TMA are indeed for killing people

And some folks in this thread are helping you update your learning.

We talk about martial arts that have long history (1000 or more years).

That's rather arbitrary. Why not 2,000 years or more? Why not 500 or more? It seems like you have a whole lot of preconcieved notions about what "martial arts" are and are unfortunately caught up in the very natural human trap of confirmation bias.

Take this for example: there were wars on the east

There weren't any wars anywhere else?

and when the innocent villagers were attacked from soldiers (in their free time) or bandit raids, it means that villagers that started to train themselves only train to defend themselves (we know that most martial arts are born within the villagers to survive)? If they won against the soldiers and they survived, it mean that they eventually couldn't come back to attack again?

Your whole "example" is predicated that "martial arts" MUST have a military origin. They just don't.

Or bandit raids, if bandit raid is stopped and all bandits survived, so they run and won't attack ever again?

Maybe the Bandits have better "martial arts."

Also, "men" at that time, all problems between themselves, they solved with duels

They did? I don't think that the historic texts actually support this. Most of the ancient civilizations seem to have had a legal system which supported judicial methods of conflict resolution. Babylonian, Hebrew, and Hammurabic codes are quite clear. No doubt that duels happened, but you certainly can't say that the only, or preferred, method was dueling. Heck, according the Hebrew texts, Moses had to flee from his home as the result of settling a problem he had with another man in a fight, which resulted in the others death. Again, it seems that you are looking for what you want to see instead of what is actually there.

(usually death duels).

Define "duel," the context, and then offer support of how often a duel was engaged in and how often it resulted in death. I know that this is very interesting to historians. I recall sitting for one Doctoral who read excerpts of his dissertation on dueling. There was so much variation over the centuries that he had to restrict it to a specific area for a small slice of time. I helped republish the book "The History of Deulling." https://www.amazon.com/History-Duelling-Countries-Jared-Kirby/dp/0557343526 See that name "Kirk Lawson" there under "transcribed?" That's me.

Street fights often ended up with killing the opponent.

What is a "street fight," what historic and geographical context, and please reference what you used for your source for number of "street fights" vs. number of fatalities from "street fights." Carolyn Conley's "The Agreeable Recreation of Fighting" sifted a lot of source, including court records which showed that deaths were less common than what some people might have thought but that when deaths occurred it was often not considered as big a deal as some today would assume.

Even there are a lot of martial arts and systems (some of them modern) designed for killing (for example: silat, muay boran, kapu kuialua, kalaripayattu - I strongly recommend that you should read some history (if you didn't) about these arts).

<cough> <cough> I've trained with some folks from a few of these and have friends in more. I was once asked to give a brief presentation of European Military Saber to some of his Silat students.

I'm so disappointed that there are not so many information about martial arts on the internet and books in pdf that we can read online.

Ummm.... what? The internet is positively awash in free texts on martial arts and martial arts histories. If you haven't found them, you're just not looking.

2. Give me example of one that nowadays train like old masters? Who right now have so much time as to train 12 hours a day like masters of old (I don't say that there doesn't exist someone that train long - personally, I know a guy that trained for 5-6 hours a day in his younger days)? Yeah, masters of old, liked to preach about philosophy, spirituality etc, but when? In their older years. Read some history on prominent martial artists of east culture and you will see when they "become so wise" as to preach all the harmony and all stuff - with all experience that they gathered in their younger days (there are still exceptions, like in everything). Read about their younger days and see what was the usual ending of martial art combat on the streets.

Friend, I have read "about" many of these folks. I've actually read what they wrote in some instances. They didn't typically have 12-hour training days. It happened some, but it wasn't a life-long effort. The body just can't handle it, particularly as it ages. That or what you're defining as "training" is a bit different from what most of us think.

3. Yes, I absolutely agree on your point that there are people that train for killing.

P.S. Don't get me wrong, all this stuff are from what I have learned. Feel free to send me something that will prove me otherwise. Don't know if it's right or wrong, but here is something from the internet that I lastly read about this subject.
6 Great Martial Arts for Killing a Man With Your Bare Hands

You know, don't you, that Cracked is a humor site known for it's listicals, not an actual scholarly site? You read Cracked to laugh (back when they were funny) not to get advice on Martial Arts.

Would I be wrong in guessing that you haven't been pursuing Martial Arts for very long? You seem to be promoting positions that I've come to associate with people who are still fairly new to martial arts training. I'm not trying to insult you or promote myself, it's just an observation.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

All martial arts (speaking for traditional) were designed for killing people and originated from wars.

The overwhelming majority of currently practiced martial arts have civilian origins. Even most of those which do have legitimate links to military usage were mostly supplemental and not primary battlefield arts.

We talk about martial arts that have long history (1000 or more years).

Contrary to marketing spin, there are no existing arts which are 1000 years old. The oldest continuous lineage that we know of in the martial arts is probably Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō-ryū, which is only 571 years old.

Give me example of one that nowadays train like old masters? Who right now have so much time as to train 12 hours a day like masters of old

Given the need to earn a living, there weren't that many masters of old who had the leisure to train 12 hours per day. Even professional soldiers and noblemen usually had other demands on their time. Doubtless there were some, but the percentage of the population who have that much leisure time to devote to martial arts training is probably higher today than at any other point in human history.

 

[hoshin1600]

i do not understand why these myths are still being perpetuated.
DONT PEOPLE KNOW HOW TO USE GOOGLE???

 

[lklawson]

i do not understand why these myths are still being perpetuated.
DONT PEOPLE KNOW HOW TO USE GOOGLE???

The myths are more cool than the reality. I kinda wish that the myths were real. The reality is often times boring or just flat out disappointing. I recall doing some research on a well known martial arts master of the early Renaissance. Turns out that his magnum opus book on wrestling was mostly just an advertisement and resume trying to get work as the official martial arts instructor for an aristocrat's children. Even when he got the job, he didn't have time to train 12-hours a day. He was too busy training teens and pre-teens of his employer.

The reality of a master who's spent his entire life perfecting his physical art having to almost beg an aristocrat to train said aristocrat's snot nosed kids so that he wouldn't starve while wearing rags on the roadside is a whole lot more suck than imagining a wizened master being brought bribes by the entire contry-side for the the privilege of watching him train (and try to copy him) for 12 hours a day.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

I have it on good authority, that ancient Monks, did indeed, train twelve hours a day, every day.

But upon further investigation of cave drawings... okay, so it wasn't actually a cave drawing, it was a men's room wall, it turns out they trained an hour and a half, then went online, probably an abacus connected to some coconuts, and had some rocking forums.

 

[GreatUniter]

The commonly cited origin is the need for a weapon that wasn't a weapon. The Jitte was never intended for use in "war."

"We" do? Which "traditional martial arts?" Heck which "martial arts?"

And some folks in this thread are helping you update your learning.

That's rather arbitrary. Why not 2,000 years or more? Why not 500 or more? It seems like you have a whole lot of preconcieved notions about what "martial arts" are and are unfortunately caught up in the very natural human trap of confirmation bias.

There weren't any wars anywhere else?

Your whole "example" is predicated that "martial arts" MUST have a military origin. They just don't.

Maybe the Bandits have better "martial arts."

They did? I don't think that the historic texts actually support this. Most of the ancient civilizations seem to have had a legal system which supported judicial methods of conflict resolution. Babylonian, Hebrew, and Hammurabic codes are quite clear. No doubt that duels happened, but you certainly can't say that the only, or preferred, method was dueling. Heck, according the Hebrew texts, Moses had to flee from his home as the result of settling a problem he had with another man in a fight, which resulted in the others death. Again, it seems that you are looking for what you want to see instead of what is actually there.


Define "duel," the context, and then offer support of how often a duel was engaged in and how often it resulted in death. I know that this is very interesting to historians. I recall sitting for one Doctoral who read excerpts of his dissertation on dueling. There was so much variation over the centuries that he had to restrict it to a specific area for a small slice of time. I helped republish the book "The History of Deulling." https://www.amazon.com/History-Duelling-Countries-Jared-Kirby/dp/0557343526 See that name "Kirk Lawson" there under "transcribed?" That's me.


What is a "street fight," what historic and geographical context, and please reference what you used for your source for number of "street fights" vs. number of fatalities from "street fights." Carolyn Conley's "The Agreeable Recreation of Fighting" sifted a lot of source, including court records which showed that deaths were less common than what some people might have thought but that when deaths occurred it was often not considered as big a deal as some today would assume.


<cough> <cough> I've trained with some folks from a few of these and have friends in more. I was once asked to give a brief presentation of European Military Saber to some of his Silat students.

Ummm.... what? The internet is positively awash in free texts on martial arts and martial arts histories. If you haven't found them, you're just not looking.


Friend, I have read "about" many of these folks. I've actually read what they wrote in some instances. They didn't typically have 12-hour training days. It happened some, but it wasn't a life-long effort. The body just can't handle it, particularly as it ages. That or what you're defining as "training" is a bit different from what most of us think.


You know, don't you, that Cracked is a humor site known for it's listicals, not an actual scholarly site? You read Cracked to laugh (back when they were funny) not to get advice on Martial Arts.

Would I be wrong in guessing that you haven't been pursuing Martial Arts for very long? You seem to be promoting positions that I've come to associate with people who are still fairly new to martial arts training. I'm not trying to insult you or promote myself, it's just an observation.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I must admit, you are making a good point. I have done some research, but it's not much I'm afraid. I will do some research and see to it. And for the last part, yes, I'm not very long in martial arts (to sum up, about 6-7 years), but not new to street fights though. That's why I'm here at the first place, my goal is to see if what I have learned is true (although I learned almost all on this subject from some books, documentaries and some posts, outside training). I don't have intention of promoting positions, martial art styles or myself, I apologize if it looked like that.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Remeber we only used Karate when we need to specially when you need to defend your self in the street. Also you can walk away in the situation to avoid hurting the guy or you getting hurt. but heres a senario what if you walk away and he still go after you and try to harm you what you gon a do you have to fight back right you dont have to break his arms or leg or face just teach him a lesson and he will learn from it

 

[Tomarn]

I wouldn't worry about it. If you haven't practiced those blows in a sparring or fighting situation your chances of hurting anyone with them are pretty remote anyway.

PS how'd you get inside the bag?

I was trained as a Commando in UK and later 3 years in Jui Jitsu and Kuatsu from1976_1978 and have yet to use it in defence in all the years since. What this training gives you is the sense of confidence. You don't go looking for fights to prove your self, yet you don't walk away in fear. There have been occassions when I was confronted and I held control. The other person usually mouthed off and walked away. Why? I don't know. Maybe because I didn't back off. Training gives one self the confidence to stand up. At 77 years old I still train in the gym and once a week boxing training to keep in shape.

 

[oftheherd1]

I was trained as a Commando in UK and later 3 years in Jui Jitsu and Kuatsu from1976_1978 and have yet to use it in defence in all the years since. What this training gives you is the sense of confidence. You don't go looking for fights to prove your self, yet you don't walk away in fear. There have been occassions when I was confronted and I held control. The other person usually mouthed off and walked away. Why? I don't know. Maybe because I didn't back off. Training gives one self the confidence to stand up. At 77 years old I still train in the gym and once a week boxing training to keep in shape.

Good on you! Welcome to MT.

 

[Buka]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Tomarn.