groundwork with guns

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Runs With Fire, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. Runs With Fire

    Runs With Fire Purple Belt

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    I have my big test next week (krav black belt) It was originally in July but was postponed. Anyway, the head instructor who is coming up from Florida just added a bit of material. Handgun defense from guard, mount. I suspect there will be a request to display long gun from guard, mount as well. I'm getting it down decent enough but was looking for some good (or bad ) video links. I also suspect a request to show firearm use from guard, mount. Thanks.
     
  2. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    That should be interesting!
     
  3. Runs With Fire

    Runs With Fire Purple Belt

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    Yes, it should. Firearm use is not in the curriculum until black belt, so it's just what we have done on our own. It would be a good crash introduction. our training pistols are rubber with the trigger guard removed. Long guns are 2x4 cutouts of whatever was laying around at the time.
     
  4. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Are you asking about you being in guard & mount defending vs a person with a firearm OR you defending with a firearm?
     
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  5. Runs With Fire

    Runs With Fire Purple Belt

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    Mainly, holding opponent in guard- defend against drawn handgun.
    Being held in guard- defend against drawn handgun.
    Holding in full mount- defend against drawn handgun.
    Being held in full mount- defend against drawn handgun.
     
  6. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Is it a semi auto or a revolver?
    Will be different as to specific tactics and when the firearm is dangerous and in what manner it is dangerous.
    First control the barrel assuring the muzzle never is pointed toward any part of your body.
    If a semi auto and controlling the barrel and slide the firearm can discharge once and then the firearm becomes a blunt object due to having a failure to feed. There will have to be a cycling of the slide and even a removal of the magazine, cycling of the slide, reinstalling the magazine, and then a cycling of the slide once again to make the firearm dischargeable. If a revolver with a external hammer in-order for the weapon to fire besides having a loaded cylinder bore, a couple of things have to happen. One the hammer must be retracted and the cylinder must turn. This happens as the trigger is pulled. So besides keeping the muzzle pointed away from your body parts holding the barrel in a manner that prevents the cylinder from turning the weapon will not fire. However, if there is a live cartridge in the aligned cylinder and barrel And the hammer is cocked the weapon will fire once and then the above becomes true again with the cylinder having to turn. To prevent the discharge of a revolver with a cocked hammer something like a finger, when grasping the revolver must be between the hammer and the firing pin. Will pinch and can be painful but will prevent the discharge as long as it prevents the hammer from striking the firing pin. If a revolver with an internal hammer preventing the cylinder from turning will prevent a discharge.
    Either way you are in a very bad situation grappling vs a person with a firearm.
     
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  7. Runs With Fire

    Runs With Fire Purple Belt

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    Why? I always thought a tap and rack once should do it.
     
  8. Runs With Fire

    Runs With Fire Purple Belt

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    Or just a rack.
     
  9. wab25

    wab25 Yellow Belt

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    Why remove the trigger guard? If you develop a little control, there are some fun things you can do with it. That bit of control gives you a few more options in some cases. ( I can take his finger off while he is standing there, or I can put him on the ground first and then collect the finger... It's so much more fun to give someone the finger, when it's their finger ;) )

    If you ever want to try your stuff against simunitions, those guns have trigger guards... you will want the other guy to have some control, as the possibility of getting shot by simunition rounds, ups the speed and power. This is where you really need that feel and control to prevent injury.
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Until you tear someone's finger off fighting for it.
     
  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    If they have you in mount and have a gun you are in a bit of trouble.

    I don't think the fundamental escapes really changes.
     
  12. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    Some of us have been doing it for a while.
     
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  13. Runs With Fire

    Runs With Fire Purple Belt

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    When teaching beginners, no trigger guard or no finger. When working with higher levels, we like to work on speed. Which means it's hard to stop as soon as the shooter's index finger strains.
     
  14. Runs With Fire

    Runs With Fire Purple Belt

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    Big trouble. Not a whole lot changes, there's just a lot less room for error. I have limited techniques because at least one hand is controlling the weapon, and only so many things while being able to control the weapon and not shoot myself while incapacitating my opponent.
     
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  15. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Should...usually...but in the heat of battle double feeds happen.
     
  16. Runs With Fire

    Runs With Fire Purple Belt

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    In that case, I have a nice little club.
     
  17. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    And I stated; "then the firearm becomes a blunt object."
     
  18. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    This is becoming more and more a consideration in the general "firearms for self defense" community. Mike Seeklander is a big advocate and has some free stuff available. It's mostly based around a BJJ base (he's a big BJJ fan, practices regularly and even has a "private coach"). You can get a free month at his website while he's still offering the deal. Lots of vids and articles. Good stuff from what I've heard. New Home Page | American Warrior Society

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  19. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    That depends on the nature of the malfunction. A Tap-Rack-Bang will work for a lot of stuff, but I've seen jams that would not fix from a TR. Further, not all ejection failures can be completely fixed without moving the gun so that gravity can pull the case or cartridge out. This is a luxury you may not have when rolling. I'd also like to point out that a TR is generally a two-handed technique. You may not want to give up use of both of your hands while rolling. I suppose you could try to rack on the belt, but I'm not overly fond of this technique and I'd particularly frown on it while rolling. If it jams, just pistol whip him with it. You can crush skulls and break bones easily enough.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  20. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    We do this in IRT all the time and have been for years.
     
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