groin strike effectiveness

[kwaichang]

1. I totally agree that groin shots "don't always work". For that matter neither does shooting a guy two or three times if no vital organs are hit.
2. From my personal experience; the one time I used a front snap kick to the groin, I put the guy down and out for 20 minutes. ....thought I killed him...and this in class.:angel:

 

[sgtmac_46]

I love the 50% head in the sand mentality.... and thanks for the absolute worst case scenario that most of us will not encounter...even still his balls are gone but he wasnt attacking anyone just walking around with them....
no one is telling you to rely on just a groin strike....but at the same time there are those of you who would discredit it all together.... being hit in the nuts does not feel good.... some people get hurt/injured or die and very few dont react at all....

if I tell you that gouging out an eye is effective people will come around with stories about people cutting out thier eyes and walking around with them....

the point his having a 100% mentality all the time .... the point is injuring them until satisified.... the point is not to rely on one strike one kill.... the point is to keep striking till they are not functioning.... I understand that not everything will work all the time but something will.... and as long as one is repeatedly targeting areas that are scientifically and medically proven to provide traumatic results then that is all that one can expect.... always causing effects in the other person.... not the one effected by cause....

if i got dinged in the nuts it would be uncomfortable at least.... i would definately keep fighting...but if my eyes were gouged after that along with a ruptured eardrum a crushed adams apple etc... i doubt i can keep going and if i was high... i think my body would eventually shut me down from shock or suffocation

We're not talking about an eye, partner......you fail to understand the difference between PAIN and DYSFUNCTION! You NEED eyes to fight, you don't need a testicle. Relying on PAIN to achieve your objective is an iffy proposition.....and if you think that running in to some drugged out maniac you have to defend yourself against is a 'remote' possibility then it's not me with his head in the sand......because the kind of guy who IS going to blindside you in some alley somewhere is going to be jacked up on hyper-stimulants, bet it crack cocaine or methamphetamines, or a dissociative anasthetic, or even just alcohol.

A technique that causes DYSFUNCTION is more reliable than one designed to end the fight because of 'Pain'. If you DECAPITATE someone, they will stop fighting. If you stab them in the leg, not necessarily. If you gouge both eyes out, you can simply walk out of reach regardless of whether he feels it or not. Are you tracking yet?

I've dealt with a lot of folks in my line of work who were high on something or just enraged enough not to feel much. I watched a felon high on methamphetamines take a baton strike to the head that simply collapsed the baton and had ZERO effect......A guy last week fought with the K9 for 5 minutes while it was biting him and he was fighting with other other officers. PAIN works sometimes, DYSFUNCTION works far more often.

When I absolutely positively have to put someone down with my bare hands I don't expect a testicle hit to work.....I choke them unconcious, physically cut off the oxygen to the brain, causing DYSFUNCTION! Works almost all the time!

 

[sgtmac_46]

1. I totally agree that groin shots "don't always work". For that matter neither does shooting a guy two or three times if no vital organs are hit.
2. From my personal experience; the one time I used a front snap kick to the groin, I put the guy down and out for 20 minutes. ....thought I killed him...and this in class.:angel:

I agree with everything above.......but I do caution folks about their 'class' experiences........we see the same thing with police training......Pepper Spray classes provide an EXCELLENT example of this phenomenon.......the effects are going to be FAR greater in class than on the street, because someone on the street is motivated to fight, while someone in class is just motivated enough to do what he needs to do to get to the water hose and wash off the OC spray.

The same with a groin shot in class.....he has no great motivation keeping him moving......the pain becomes his focus. Take the same guy and put him in a different situation and you'll find CONSIDERABLY more pain tolerance.

 

[kwaichang]

When I absolutely positively have to put someone down with my bare hands I don't expect a testicle hit to work.....I choke them unconcious, physically cut off the oxygen to the brain, causing DYSFUNCTION! Works almost all the time!

Which could explain why review boards are kept so busy.
Choking isn't an exact science and it will be viewed unfavorably should something go amiss, like a video of the scene.:shock:

 

[kwaichang]

I agree with everything above.......but I do caution folks about their 'class' experiences..

I should have included the fact that it was my second day in class-I can remember that far back ) and was in a defensive circle with an abnoxous yellow belt doing the attacking; afterwards many in class including the owner of the studio commended me on the technique and told me the yellow belt had been overly bulling new students for some time, this time he made a mistake and all would benefit.

......we see the same thing with police training......Pepper Spray classes provide an EXCELLENT example of this

yep, 'cause everyone is fairly rested, not on drugs or such and is semi-aware of what to expect...then SURPRISE

The same with a groin shot in class.....he has no great motivation keeping him moving......the pain becomes his focus. Take the same guy and put him in a different situation and you'll find CONSIDERABLY more pain tolerance.

Of course in class you should be wearing a cup and expect certain painful techniques to not get pulled once in a while. Your body chemistry changes dramatically when it's "fight for your life" and the bodies defenses kick in.

 

[shihansmurf]

*I respect your training....but this far from the reality of a violent confrontation and more along the lines of "combat sports".... all of the movements that you stated are elastic and although may be accompanied with great speed and strenghth....they lack the rotation/penetration required to inflict true trauma and render the opposintion non-functional....
soft tissue attacks are exactly what being performed when you strike the human body with your body weapons...the payoff is targeting specific areas that cause traumatic response in the central nervous system in an attempt to shut off thier most powerful weapon which is thier brain......
if you train to target and you know the reaction or the effect that striking that target has then you control the outcome.... the man who causes the first injury is the one likely to go home.... you can punch and kick each other all night, it happens on t.v. all the time....

Firs off, I have experienced the reality of unarmed violent confrontation.I am a soldier, a combat veteran in point of fact. During a number of encounters in Iraq, specifically at traffic control points where the locals would fight us when we pulled them out of cars to search them(sometimes with weapons), and in couple of other incidents.I have also, as you observed, participated in combat sports. The skill set that enabled me to be successful in the ring as a boxer also enabled me to defend myself in the afore-mentioned real world violent encounters.

People do get punched and kicked all night on TV without being knocked out. These are well conditioned fighters who are used to taking punishment. The average guy on the street isn't that well conditioned and can't absorb heavy impact like that. Boxing gloves don't just protect the strikers hand they also disperse the force of the impact over a larger area resulting in less penetrating force behind each impact, thus allowing the fight to continue. UFC and other MMA's have a higher rate of knock out than boxing primarily because of the lighter gloves that have a smaller surface area and the fact that the feet/shins are bare.That being said there have been a number of deaths do to traumatic brain injury in boxing and other "combat sports", an olympic style TKD player a couple of years ago springs to mind.More importantly the fact that knockouts occur with great frequency directly counters your position that the technique list that I mentioned, the jab/cross combo the the face in particular, "lack the rotation/penetration required to inflict true trauma and render the opposintion non-functional". I am of the opinion that an unconscious opponent is effectively non-functional as is a fighter who is on the ground trying to regain his air from having it kicked out of them with that front kick to the gut I mentioned.

I don't discount the effectiveness of soft-tissue striking(by this I mean the act of targeting the eyes, throat, groin, and the other assorted "fight ending targets" that non-fighters are so fond of relying on). Where I have a problem is with the idea that these are the most effective way to end a fight. I also don't believe that they are reliable targets in a fight do to the size of the target and the fine motor skills needed to effectively target the eyes/throat/groin/magic nerve cluster that makes the adversary too depressed to keep fighting/ or whatever.Gross motor movements like basic punching and kicking skills to reliably hit targets like the head, stomach, and legs are a much more effective and easier to connect with when you are also fighting fear, and adrenaline.

One last thing. Not everyone reacts the same way to getting hit. I may flinch and pull back from a jab as an autonomic response( I don't but for the example assume I do) whereas you me turn your head with the blow also as a autonomic reaction. Since the reaction is not the same it is not possible to train our responses to the degree where we "know" what the effect" of our landed hits will be.

Just my thoughts
Mark

 

[kwaichang]

Smurf or not, I thank you for your service.

 

[shihansmurf]

Smurf or not, I thank you for your service.

Well, we smurfs are the sworn enemies of Al Qeada, Terrorists, and pesky wizards that keep pet cats named Azrael.


Seriously, I appreciate the kind words.

Mark

P.S. We can't abide the Snorks, either.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Which could explain why review boards are kept so busy.
Choking isn't an exact science and it will be viewed unfavorably should something go amiss, like a video of the scene.:shock:

Use of force isn't an exact science....anyone who thinks it is is either delusional or selling a bill of goods.....being viewed 'unfavorably' by a review board is NOT worse than being viewed unfavorably by your family because you are DEAD or PERMANENTLY INJURED!

Moreover, i've had the training and experience to defend my actions ON and OFF camera.

Furthermore, the LVNR as taught by Jim Lindell and the NLETC and used by the Kansas City Police Department and numerous other agencies for 34 years has this result

No death, injury or litigation for excessive use of force for 34 years against agencies using the certified Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (LVNR®) System!

I draw your attention to the Rodney King situation....10 years prior to Rodney King the LA City Council conducted a study based on the 'fear' that someone 'might die' from a neck restraint, and calculated that the possibility, though remote, would result in a lawsuit in the tens of millions of dollars.

They concluded it would be FAR MORE cost effective to pay out the far smaller damages resulting from baton strikes than the far more remote possibility of a death from a neck restraint....the RESULT! Well you know the result don't you?


The NECK restraint has be shunned because it 'sounds like it COULD be fatal' not because it is. It's a case of perception overcoming reality. If you have a choice of me either breaking your arm or causing you to temporarily lose conciousness, only to recover with not long term effects, which do you prefer?

I've been choked unconcious dozens of times.....thousands upon thousands of Jui-Jitsu practioners and Judoka are choked unconcious every year.....more people die from bad food on the buffet.

 

[kwaichang]

Use of force isn't an exact science....

agreed and that is why I added a word of caution

.....being viewed 'unfavorably' by a review board is NOT worse than being viewed unfavorably by your family because you are DEAD or PERMANENTLY INJURED!

..better to be judged by twelve then be carried by six...I totally agree with that sentiment.

Moreover, i've had the training and experience to defend my actions ON and OFF camera.

You're fortunate. Life situations often are changed by adrenaline or unexpected reactions to being subdued.

Furthermore, the LVNR as taught by Jim Lindell and the NLETC and used by the Kansas City Police Department and numerous other agencies for 34 years has this result

I'm familiar with the gentleman and his credentials are excellent. My point wasn't with him nor with training but rather how the practice of choking is viewed by those who judge/jury law enforcements actions.

The NECK restraint has be shunned because it 'sounds like it COULD be fatal' not because it is. It's a case of perception overcoming reality. If you have a choice of me either breaking your arm or causing you to temporarily lose conciousness, only to recover with not long term effects, which do you prefer?

Actually I thought I was responding to the use of the technique on a subject not on ones self. In defense of ones self, I'd rather break someones arm or limit their mobility before resulting to rendering them unconscious by using a strangle hold (sic).

I've been choked unconcious dozens of times.....thousands upon thousands of Jui-Jitsu practioners and Judoka are choked unconcious every year.....more people die from bad food on the buffet.

About the buffet thingy, I'm not sure. However, as a jiu-jitsu (yes I know about the spelling) practioner and licensed Sensei for decades, I am most assuredly familiar with chokes, etc. It's just that you and I see their use differently. I'm a tad more concerned with the litigiousness of society and choose other techniques before "the last resort".
....fall easy

 

[sgtmac_46]

agreed and that is why I added a word of caution

..better to be judged by twelve then be carried by six...I totally agree with that sentiment.

You're fortunate. Life situations often are changed by adrenaline or unexpected reactions to being subdued.

I'm familiar with the gentleman and his credentials are excellent. My point wasn't with him nor with training but rather how the practice of choking is viewed by those who judge/jury law enforcements actions.


Actually I thought I was responding to the use of the technique on a subject not on ones self. In defense of ones self, I'd rather break someones arm or limit their mobility before resulting to rendering them unconscious by using a strangle hold (sic).

About the buffet thingy, I'm not sure. However, as a jiu-jitsu (yes I know about the spelling) practioner and licensed Sensei for decades, I am most assuredly familiar with chokes, etc. It's just that you and I see their use differently. I'm a tad more concerned with the litigiousness of society and choose other techniques before "the last resort".
....fall easy

I can assure you, using the technique we're discussing right now, that you are MANY TIMES more likely to get successfully sued for striking someone in the groin with ANY degree of force than using an approved neck restraint. That's reality.

I've never seen one injured or killed by a neck restraint, and while it's certainly possible, people die from peanut allergies as well. You are FAR more likely to rupture a testicle with a groin strike of any power, and that will cost you individual or an agency TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars IF you settle out of court.

Courts don't view the techniques positively or negatively unless there is injury....neck restraints done properly DO NOT cause ANY injury, not even the appearance of injury. You break an arm or even a JOINT on the other hand and you'll pay TENS OF THOUSANDS in settlements....for a technique with a FAR LOWER degree of success in bringing compliance.

I've been a law enforcement trainer for several years, and the fear of a given technique or tool by the public is generally not based on reason but instead PURE emotional reaction. But we CANNOT build our logically constructed defensive tactics program on irrational beliefs.

If we use logic and reason as a primer for a program we save officers lives.....even if we have to defend our rationale against emotionalism and idiocy......we do that.

IF, however, we try to build our program around what the lowest common denominator in the public might 'feel' upon seeing a technique we build a program that's ineffective and will ultimately get an officer hurt or killed......AND, ironically, will result in MORE LAWSUITS that we lose because the techniques will FAIL resulting in the officers needing to use HIGHER LEVELS OF FORCE to defend themselves and accomplish the job.

How that works is like this.....I take Officer Smith and teach him some politically correct but highly ineffective control techniques tested in front of the Civilian Review board to get their (uneducated) seal of APPROVAL! Officer Smith confronts Joe Bob Dirtbag on a traffic stop, and Joe Bob decides he's going to fight........Officer Smith uses his departmentally taught Civilian Review Board approved tactics on Joe Bob, and not only fails but gets in a seriously compromised position with Joe Bob where he ends up fearing for his life and has to SHOOT JOE BOB! Now the department is being sued.....and the FAULT rests firmly in the hands of the faulty defensive tactics program.

Same scenario but instead we have given Officer Smith the TOOLS and TRAINING to deal with Joe Bob.....Officer Smith has options, and when Joe Bob gets out of hand, Officer Smith applies the departmentally approved LVNR technique, gains control of Joe Bob, handcuffs him and takes him to jail...ZERO INJURIES! Everyone lives, nobody dies and Officer Smith is injury free for the next call.