Can a martial art kills?

[JR 137]

That's not a tirade, that's 2-3 sentences disagreeing with you. You said that most people will get hit by their attacker. Yes, you will if you are not doing SD correctly, however for the average citizen protecting themselves from non consensual criminal violence if you are doing SD correctly that's not true, more often than not you won't get hit first.

Although to answer your question, most people get the same tirade because most people make the same mistake. They give people advice on SD when they don't understand it. They are only able to see SD in terms of men getting into bar fights, and refuse to accept that any other scenario that exists can be classed as SD.


Because you said in most cases you will get hit first.


This is part of your problem. You are thinking in terms of exchange blows with people, as you do in a fight/sparring/sporting contest. You don't hit someone preemptively in SD and then stop so he can have a turn hitting you and keep taking it in turns until there is a winner.

Striking preemptively means you hit them, and do not stop hitting them until they are no longer a threat, then you escape. That may in some cases be one blow yes, but in other cases it may take more. Either way he does not get a go. I get a go, then another go and another go until I don't need anymore goes. That is why you are incorrect. If done correctly, in more case than not you will not get hit by your attacker is you are doing SD correctly. It's not 100% of the time, but I never said it was.

I have no idea where you are getting this idea that you only hit once, but clearly the fact you have this idea (and the idea that you will get hit more times than not) shows you don't understand how SD is supposed to work when done correctly. You are thinking in terms of fighting (exchanging blows). You are giving not only bad advice but also dangerous advice by telling them they will get hit more often than not, and are only allowed to preemptively strike once, and then have to let the other guy hit them back.


That's true, but clearly that comment was not aimed at those scenarios.


That's true, but clearly that comment was not aimed at those scenarios.


Because you are hitting fighters. Again, you are thinking in terms of SD as one martial artists trying to out fight another martial artist. Muggers, sexual predators, killers etc are not looking to fight you. A mugger will ask you the time, then if you are daft enough to take your phone out of your pocket to see the time, they'll sucker punch your and steal your phone. Did Ted Bundy challenge his victims to three five minutes rounds, or did he put his arm in a sling and ask his victims to help him load shopping into a car?

They do not want to fight you, they want the easiest way to take what they want. Hence, they don't get into fights, because a) they are very good at victim selection, and b) they will use the four D's (Deception, Dialogue, Distraction, Destruction) to take you out of the game before you even knew you were in it. They won't give you "a go" at hitting back, because that lessens their chances of success.

You are hitting trained MAs who are used to being hit, and hit hard every week, because they are the people you train with. Dojos up and down the country are not full of muggers and sexual predators stepping into the ring to learn how to take a hard shot.


No I don't. But I can only go on the information in your post, which was suggesting that more often than not you will get hit, and and talking in terms of single preemptive strike.

That was also an explanation btw, not a tirade. The tirade would usually come after you continue to argue with this post, but there is clearly little hope if you are going to argue with "if you are doing SD correctly you don't get hit more often than not".

Over and out x x

And I forgot to mention in my tirade...

If you think just because an attacker doesn’t want to fight means they won’t hit back, you’re dillusional. Most criminals that are going to do this type of thing have been around the block. They’re not afraid of getting hit. They can take a hit and give one back. The ones you’ve come across that don’t fit that mold are amateurs and won’t bother anyone again after they get smacked the first time. If you think they’re going to go into the fetal position and cry once they get hit, there’s genuinely nothing I can say. I can only shake my head and walk away.

 

[drop bear]

And I forgot to mention in my tirade...

If you think just because an attacker doesn’t want to fight means they won’t hit back, you’re dillusional. Most criminals that are going to do this type of thing have been around the block. They’re not afraid of getting hit. They can take a hit and give one back. The ones you’ve come across that don’t fit that mold are amateurs and won’t bother anyone again after they get smacked the first time. If you think they’re going to go into the fetal position and cry once they get hit, there’s genuinely nothing I can say. I can only shake my head and walk away.

You have no idea how disappointed I was when I found out I couldn't just drop dudes at will during a street fight.

That the culmination of my slick moves was I may have backed them off or bloodied them up a bit.

I think the issue is that even guys who can fight will talk up the tales of themselves fighting.

That both guys can walk away claiming victory. Or even that deescalation skills are determined by the size of the guy that I was potentially fighting.

All you need then is a couple of repetitions and no one to varify and you get this mess of actual tested stuff, untested stuff and pure whimsy.

 

[JR 137]

You have no idea how disappointed I was when I found out I couldn't just drop dudes at will during a street fight.

That the culmination of my slick moves was I may have backed them off or bloodied them up a bit.

I think the issue is that even guys who can fight will talk up the tales of themselves fighting.

That both guys can walk away claiming victory. Or even that deescalation skills are determined by the size of the guy that I was potentially fighting.

All you need then is a couple of repetitions and no one to varify and you get this mess of actual tested stuff, untested stuff and pure whimsy.

Add to that...
People walk through a dangerous neighborhood. A few shady looking people looked at them, and maybe one or two asked them if they know what time it is or for some change. They don’t respond and keep going, making it through the tough neighborhood without getting mugged, jumped, etc. Then they tell anyone who’ll listen that they successfully employed their soft SD skills. Sure. They know for a fact that every one of those people looking at them or asking them a question was trying to attack them. It’s too easy to say “prove they weren’t trying to attack me.”

Some people are a bit too paranoid.

I was never let down by the fact that I can’t drop anyone and everyone at will. I learned that before kindergarten and got reminded too many times throughout my youth.

 

[jobo]

Add to that...
People walk through a dangerous neighborhood. A few shady looking people looked at them, and maybe one or two asked them if they know what time it is or for some change. They don’t respond and keep going, making it through the tough neighborhood without getting mugged, jumped, etc. Then they tell anyone who’ll listen that they successfully employed their soft SD skills. Sure. They know for a fact that every one of those people looking at them or asking them a question was trying to attack them. It’s too easy to say “prove they weren’t trying to attack me.”

Some people are a bit too paranoid.

I was never let down by the fact that I can’t drop anyone and everyone at will. I learned that before kindergarten and got reminded too many times throughout my youth.

yes, only yesterday i was in a very tough area, i live there, and two big dudes approached my asking for a light, they stood well within punching range, one directly in front one to the side, i gave them my lighter, they lit their cigs and gave me my lighter back and then walked off, this proves I'm a self defence expert , who put off their attack with my skills, or perhaps that they just wanted a light, hard to say

 

[drop bear]

Some videos of thefts.

You still may have to fight them.

 

[JR 137]

yes, only yesterday i was in a very tough area, i live there, and two big dudes approached my asking for a light, they stood well within punching range, one directly in front one to the side, i gave them my lighter, they lit their cigs and gave me my lighter back and then walked off, this proves I'm a self defence expert , who put off their attack with my skills, or perhaps that they just wanted a light, hard to say

Your skills failed, as you allowed them into punching range. You should’ve “put up a fence” as they say. But you redeemed yourself by giving up your lighter and doing all that stuff that subconsciously made them think you’re not a good target. I’d put you at 2nd dan, not but not in 5th-10th dan “expert” status in SD. If you follow the resident SD expert’s logic, you failed at SD because 1) you shouldn’t have been there; and 2) you allowed them the opportunity to ask you for a light.

I’m pretty sure they just needed a light. If they wanted more, they’d have probably went ahead. Unless of course they saw something you didn’t, like a cop (Bobbie in your English?) in their periphery.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Your skills failed, as you allowed them into punching range. You should’ve “put up a fence” as they say. But you redeemed yourself by giving up your lighter and doing all that stuff that subconsciously made them think you’re not a good target. I’d put you at 2nd dan, not but not in 5th-10th dan “expert” status in SD. If you follow the resident SD expert’s logic, you failed at SD because 1) you shouldn’t have been there; and 2) you allowed them the opportunity to ask you for a light.

I’m pretty sure they just needed a light. If they wanted more, they’d have probably went ahead. Unless of course they saw something you didn’t, like a cop (Bobbie in your English?) in their periphery.

Earlier today, I had a situation where I was in a bit of a bad area. I had about 30 addicts/ex-convicts/felons walk right by me, some of them so close they literally brushed against me. I then went into a room with 15 of them and closed the door for an hour! After that hour, they all got up, and I turned to face some of them, exposing my entire back to others.

This isn't the first time it's happened either. I did the same thing yesterday, and all of last week. A couple times a day, I go in a room with just one of them alone, I don't do a 'visual pat down' or anything, who knows what they could bring with them.

Pretty sure I would get a big fat F in SD. But, I'm also pretty sure if I followed SD procedure,

A) I would not have a job because I would not show up to such a dangerous place.
B) If I did show up, I would probably be fired for staying in a corner in the room and never addressing my clients unless I could do so in a way that let me look at all my clients at once.
C) If I showed up, and somehow B didn't get me fired, I would definitely be fired for refusing to meet with any of my clients individually.

The point I'm trying to make is that all the different SD tactics aren't always realistic, and just because you choose not to do one doesn't mean you "failed" at SD. Sometimes you have to forgo some SD tactics in order to function, and not be viewed as the crazy person who acts like he's going to get shot any second.

 

[Buka]

In my very biased opinion, Self Defense training without contact fight training is like dry land synchronised swimming.

Might be fun, though.

 

[JR 137]

Earlier today, I had a situation where I was in a bit of a bad area. I had about 30 addicts/ex-convicts/felons walk right by me, some of them so close they literally brushed against me. I then went into a room with 15 of them and closed the door for an hour! After that hour, they all got up, and I turned to face some of them, exposing my entire back to others.

This isn't the first time it's happened either. I did the same thing yesterday, and all of last week. A couple times a day, I go in a room with just one of them alone, I don't do a 'visual pat down' or anything, who knows what they could bring with them.

Pretty sure I would get a big fat F in SD. But, I'm also pretty sure if I followed SD procedure,

A) I would not have a job because I would not show up to such a dangerous place.
B) If I did show up, I would probably be fired for staying in a corner in the room and never addressing my clients unless I could do so in a way that let me look at all my clients at once.
C) If I showed up, and somehow B didn't get me fired, I would definitely be fired for refusing to meet with any of my clients individually.

The point I'm trying to make is that all the different SD tactics aren't always realistic, and just because you choose not to do one doesn't mean you "failed" at SD. Sometimes you have to forgo some SD tactics in order to function, and not be viewed as the crazy person who acts like he's going to get shot any second.

Just as an aside, you detected a hint of sarcasm in my post that you quoted, right?

 

[JR 137]

In my very biased opinion, Self Defense training without contact fight training is like dry land synchronised swimming.

Might be fun, though.

Or like, how do I put this... practicing intercourse without a partner.

Entertaining and fun most of the time, but not really preparing oneself for the real thing.

 

[drop bear]

Your skills failed, as you allowed them into punching range. You should’ve “put up a fence” as they say. But you redeemed yourself by giving up your lighter and doing all that stuff that subconsciously made them think you’re not a good target. I’d put you at 2nd dan, not but not in 5th-10th dan “expert” status in SD. If you follow the resident SD expert’s logic, you failed at SD because 1) you shouldn’t have been there; and 2) you allowed them the opportunity to ask you for a light.

I’m pretty sure they just needed a light. If they wanted more, they’d have probably went ahead. Unless of course they saw something you didn’t, like a cop (Bobbie in your English?) in their periphery.

He should never have left the house

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Just as an aside, you detected a hint of sarcasm in my post that you quoted, right?

Yup haha, that was a serious response in agreement with your sarcasm.

 

[Paul_D]

Your skills failed, as you allowed them into punching range. You should’ve “put up a fence” as they say. But you redeemed yourself by giving up your lighter and doing all that stuff that subconsciously made them think you’re not a good target. I’d put you at 2nd dan, not but not in 5th-10th dan “expert” status in SD. If you follow the resident SD expert’s logic, you failed at SD because 1) you shouldn’t have been there; and 2) you allowed them the opportunity to ask you for a light.

There's missing the point and then there's Full Retard.

 

[JR 137]

There's missing the point and then there's Full Retard.

Wow. I don’t know which one’s worse...
1) A grown man using that as an attempted insult
2) You’d think that would bother me
3) It took almost a full week to come up with it
4) You couldn’t come up with something more effective

Funny how you read and quoted that post, yet fully ignored answering what makes you the expert on SD. Or are you on an “because I said I am” kick at the same maturity level as your previous post?

I’m still waiting for the same thing you do every few months... stomping your feet and claiming this place isn’t like it used to be because no one’s on your intellectual and maturity level (although see point # 1 above), and leaving for a few weeks, only to come back to the same mess and cry and leave yet again.

It won’t be long.

 

[JR 137]

He should never have left the house

And if he had to leave his house, he should’ve been rolling at least 10 deep*

*Having at least 10 people with him, for my non-street-speaking friends.

 

[Ondrejmatej]

Sometimes, I have mixed feelings when I practice karate. I was encouraged to punch hard and kick hard in a punching bag. I feel like I could break someone’s rib cage, break a arm or leg. If I get into a real street fight, I don’t think I want to kill or disable anyone.

All martial arts are not design to kill a person, some martial arts are designed to hone the mind and body. Some are used as exercise or for spiritual harmony and some are designed to kill. Most use of martial arts as a form of self-defense rather than killing.

 

[GreatUniter]

Sometimes, I have mixed feelings when I practice karate. I was encouraged to punch hard and kick hard in a punching bag. I feel like I could break someone’s rib cage, break a arm or leg. If I get into a real street fight, I don’t think I want to kill or disable anyone.

All martial arts are not design to kill a person, some martial arts are designed to hone the mind and body. Some are used as exercise or for spiritual harmony and some are designed to kill. Most use of martial arts as a form of self-defense rather than killing.

All martial arts (speaking for traditional) were designed for killing people and originated from wars. Today, we don't practice like masters of old times and there are lots of philosophies about harmony, spirituality etc. With social development, we no longer have the need to use martial arts for killing and train only for defending ourselves.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

All martial arts (speaking for traditional) were designed for killing people and originated from wars. Today, we don't practice like masters of old times and there are lots of philosophies about harmony, spirituality etc. With social development, we no longer have the need to use martial arts for killing and train only for defending ourselves.

Many techniques originated from wars, but many arts originated for civilian defense. Most contain things that can kill, but survival was their point. Empty-hand technique on a battlefield was almost certainly meant as a matter of surviving until you can get a weapon. Weapons were for killing.

 

[GreatUniter]

Many techniques originated from wars, but many arts originated for civilian defense. Most contain things that can kill, but survival was their point. Empty-hand technique on a battlefield was almost certainly meant as a matter of surviving until you can get a weapon. Weapons were for killing.

That's not what I found about martial arts history. Maybe it's time for an update on that subject.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's not what I found about martial arts history. Maybe it's time for an update on that subject.

Just to point at a few:

• Karate - evolved (as far as I can find) as a civilian defensive method, originally on Okinawa
• Aikido - developed from Daito-ryu by Ueshiba specifically for defensive (and perhaps law enforcement) use
• Nihon Goshin Aikido - specifically assembled from previous arts (Daito-ryu, Shotokan Karate, Judo, and others) for self-defense use
• Judo - developed from Jujutsu (and other sources) as a defensive/sport art (I think Kano had both in mind, originally)
• Brazilian Jiu Jutsu - developed from Judo (at the time, still often referred to as Jiu Jutsu) as a sport/defensive art

The further back we go, the more likely an art evolved for warfare, so the koryu arts in Japan are more likely to be tied to warfare than newer arts.