Being a bodybuilder or big tall and strong really good thing to help out in self defense?

Spinoza

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Yeah it is a progression thing. Whether it is 2 months of boxing or 2 months of karate you will be more well off then if you were to be without the 2 months of boxing or 2 months of karate.

I don't think the weight lifting will help you at all in a fight though. A punch or a kick isn't all that about arm or leg muscle strength. It's more about the physics of how you distribute the force of your feet moving off the ground, thougout your body, and finally into your fist. The strength would really only come into play if you are grappling and even then technique is more important then actual strength. Hip rotation is also very important.

My point is it does help, but the training in the martial arts whether it be boxing or a more asianic style, that would be much more important.
Bingo. Just as if you wanted a better vertical jump, you practice plyometric vertical jumps. Sure, maybe working on bigger legs with leg presses will help a little, but it is a roundabout way to approach your goals.

If you go to a strength trainer and ask about strength training, he or she is going to ask about your primary goals: functional strength, "explosive" strength, flexibility, stamina or size/hypertrophy, and the routine is going to be a little different for each. Most bodybuilders I've talked to avoid cardio like the plague . . . I don't think any sports fighter would do the same.
 

Ironbear24

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Bingo. Just as if you wanted a better vertical jump, you practice plyometric vertical jumps. Sure, maybe working on bigger legs with leg presses will help a little, but it is a roundabout way to approach your goals.

If you go to a strength trainer and ask about strength training, he or she is going to ask about your primary goals: functional strength, "explosive" strength, flexibility, stamina or size/hypertrophy, and the routine is going to be a little different for each. Most bodybuilders I've talked to avoid cardio like the plague . . . I don't think any sports fighter would do the same.

That's the perfect example. Weight training and body building help indirectly, but not directly.

Bodybuilders are avoiding cardio? That's not right, cardio helps burn fat, and is the best way to burn it. Are these powerlifters you are talking about? I know they avoid doing cardio because they lift for strength and muscle gains only. They also eat absurd amounts of food, mostly protein and carbs.
 

Skullpunch

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That's the perfect example. Weight training and body building help indirectly, but not directly.

Bodybuilders are avoiding cardio? That's not right, cardio helps burn fat, and is the best way to burn it. Are these powerlifters you are talking about? I know they avoid doing cardio because they lift for strength and muscle gains only. They also eat absurd amounts of food, mostly protein and carbs.

Actually it's not even uncommon for powerlifters to do their own form of conditioning/gpp such as tire flipping, prowler/sled training, etc.

I have no idea where some of the ideas about strength and muscularity people have ITT are coming from.

Strength is a major factor in any kind of physical fight. It's true that some overrate it but take 2 guys of equal skill and the stronger one will curb stomp the weaker one every-time barring some ridiculous disadvantage like having 30 seconds worth of stamina or something. Technique does not beat strength as an absolute, it happens when your technical advantage is bigger than your attacker/opponent's strength advantage.

Even in striking, more maximal strength and muscle mass = more potential to generate explosive power with the right training, which very well can translate into harder strikes. That's is why it's impossible for someone built like Mayweather to ever be able to hit like Mike Tyson.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I known some people that gone from skinny to borderline bodybuilder in year or two.

Really really really big bodybuilders like Arnold Schwarzenegger or bigger will be really hard to do and need lot of hard work and contentment.

If you are 120 pounds collage guy or girl you could bulk up to say 170 pounds.

Late but, I was a 120 pound college guy at the beginning of my freshman year. Outside of fencing and martial arts, I probably worked out around 2 hours each day on average. About half of that was cardio, a quarter was strength, and the last quarter was other stuff (agility, flexibility, etc.). Which meant half an hour each day, for four years, I was doing some sort of strength training. I finished college weighing around 135-140. After college I stopped for a bit and within three months, I was back down to 120. Not everyone has a body type that allows them to bulk up, and some people's body's fight to go back to the way they were.

Now for me this works in my favor because I happen to like this build; I've learned how to fight using it to my advantage and I would rather people not think I'm a threat if they try to engage me. But even if I didn't, there's nothing I could really do short of steroids maybe to change it.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Strength is a major factor in any kind of physical fight. It's true that some overrate it but take 2 guys of equal skill and the stronger one will curb stomp the weaker one every-time barring some ridiculous disadvantage like having 30 seconds worth of stamina or something.

I'd have to disagree with this. Sparring with people around teh same level as myself, there are times where there is a clear winner one way or the other, and it's not always the same winner. Even though we don't actually fight with the intent to hurt each other, it's clear when that would occur, and while strength would probably play a role if we actually fought, I don't think there would be any 'curb stomping every time' going on.
 

drop bear

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I'd have to disagree with this. Sparring with people around teh same level as myself, there are times where there is a clear winner one way or the other, and it's not always the same winner. Even though we don't actually fight with the intent to hurt each other, it's clear when that would occur, and while strength would probably play a role if we actually fought, I don't think there would be any 'curb stomping every time' going on.

Sparring is different. And to a certain degree harder for the bigger guy because he has to hold back more.

Easy to find out. Put on some big gloves and do a 30 second round at pace.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Sparring is different. And to a certain degree harder for the bigger guy because he has to hold back more.

Not saying necessarily that sparring would be a perfect correlation, just using it to show that fighting can be unpredictable.

Easy to find out. Put on some big gloves and do a 30 second round at pace.

At my first dojo, it was run by kickboxers, so every once in a while they would have us do exactly that. Still stick to my statement.
 

Skullpunch

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Even though we don't actually fight with the intent to hurt each other, it's clear when that would occur

I think you're overestimating your awareness to a staggering degree on this one. How can you know something like this? Without fighting with the intent to hurt you're not take the full brunt of each other's strikes, and anytime you end up clinching in the chaos of a real fight you would feel a stronger guy's strength immediately and unless your technical advantage is bigger than his strength advantage you are either going to go down (possibly very hard if he wants you to) or if you do manage to fight him off you're probably going to spend a good bit more stamina doing so than he did holding onto you, in which case now you're both weaker than he is AND more gassed - at that point you're in trouble any way you try to slice it.

And of course there's the possibility of ending up on the ground. Anyone that trains will tell you how much it sucks having a bigger, stronger guy that knows what he's doing on top of you.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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In regards to the ground- was referring primarily to stand up fighting. Don't have enough experience with regards to ground fighting to weigh in either way on that subject.
As for the rest, it's fairly easy to tell when someone throws a punch to my face and I take it, but not at full power, that I would have gone down, especially when they're bigger than me. When I manage to get in a situation where I can throw multiple successful shots in a row, if I couldn't do some serious damage to him then there's some other issue besides weight going on.
 

Skullpunch

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In regards to the ground- was referring primarily to stand up fighting. Don't have enough experience with regards to ground fighting to weigh in either way on that subject.
As for the rest, it's fairly easy to tell when someone throws a punch to my face and I take it, but not at full power, that I would have gone down, especially when they're bigger than me. When I manage to get in a situation where I can throw multiple successful shots in a row, if I couldn't do some serious damage to him then there's some other issue besides weight going on.

You're still oversimplifying this. For example, getting hit doesn't just deal physical damage, it also deals psychological damage and damage to your fatigue. A body shot from a heavyweight is going to feel completely different than a body shot from a welterweight, and glancing blows from the heavyweight could be as damaging as clean shots from the welter. And you also have to take the cumulative effect into account - this is where you would definitely feel a difference in strength and it's a non-issue if you're not trying to cause damage to each other but it's a HUGE issue if you are.

As for your last sentence....not really. That happens all the time. Ever see a boxing match where a smaller dude goes up in weight to fight a bigger opponent, lands hundreds of punches - some of which look like bombs that should be able to put the other dude down, and he can't seem to hurt him at all?

Standup fighting also involves clinching, another position in which the stronger guy's advantage should be pretty obvious.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Well, without actually talking in person i get the feeling this conversation will end up really repetitive, and we won't end up agreeing, so going to stop it here
 

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