Beginner form for Jow Ga - Full Form

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by JowGaWolf, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    This is one of the beginner forms for Jow ga. There are 3 or 4 that I've seen it just depends on the school as to what is considered a beginner form. My original beginner form from the first Jow Ga school I trained in was called Flower Fist. It had many of the moves that it has here, but it's more difficult than this form. There are also variation of forms so. This form may not look like other Jow Ga forms with the same name. Again that varies from school to school.. More accurately from Association to Association.

    This is the full form. My goal is to be able to use every technique in this form. I think I've effectively used almost all of the techniques in this form in sparring. There may be 3 or 4 that I'm still trying to work out. Only when I can use all techniques will I ever claim to "know this form". (with exception of at least 1 technique because of the damage it would cause even in sparring.).

    Enjoy.


     
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  2. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge 2nd Black Belt

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    Thanks for sharing. Don't know much about Jow Ga and it was good to see a bit of it.
     
  3. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    How long does it take students to learn the form? As a comparison, this is a beginner Taekwondo form, and it takes some of our students quite a while to get the hang of the footwork in it when they start (this is not my school, just a video I found of the form):



    The form you posted looks like something that would be around red or black belt in Taekwondo.

    Also, I'm curious which techniques you haven't found a use for yet, and which technique you wouldn't use. How true-to-the-form are they in sparring?
     
  4. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Chinese systems often have surprisingly long and complex forms when compared to Korean and Japanese forms, even at the beginner level. Some months ago I posted a few videos of my White Crane forms. All of the empty-hand forms that I posted were beginner level. Those are really long forms.
     
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  5. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge 2nd Black Belt

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    Agree, the Crane forms I know are generally complicated, especially compared to Wing Chun forms.

    Chinese forms are not always exclusively or even primarily about techniques, though.without knowing anything about Jow Ga, I suspect there are some other things going on in there too.
     
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  6. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The first CMA form I learned took me probably about 4-6 months just to get the movements down well. The second one took longer. And that was with me already having a base in kempo.
     
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  7. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    That's a good question. Over all the form has a lot of things that people already know how to do in some shape or form. People tend to progress fairly quickly if they have good memory. I would say that a beginner can probably learn the form in 4 to 5 months. The most difficult part for beginners is the cardio that's required to do the form and the technique at 0:41. Those 2 things tend to slow the student down in terms of learning the form. Usually what happens is that the Teacher will allow the student to be average at the form so that they can learn the entire form. Then after than the teacher will go back and refine the student's techniques and make corrections. This usually takes 2 or 3 months depending on how well you can clean up the techniques.

    After that it's just re-training the form until it becomes like a basic for you..The teacher will push the student harder each time with this form after they have learn it. Even Advanced students still have to do this form. Training power, speed, control and endurance. But to learn the form 4 or 5 months, And everything after is all about improving what you know.

    At the end of the form there is a jump kick. The Sifu in the video modified the jump kick. I used to be able to do the jump kick really well when I was in my 20's but my knees just can't take the repeated jumps in order to really train it for use. I still play around with it, but I'm not good enough with it to break it out in a fight. When I train the form, I will do 10 reps of the form with a modified kick and then I would do maybe 3 with the jump kick. The danger is that depending on how hard I go at the form, trying to do the kick when exhausted is dangerous. I get sloppy and start twisting on the knee instead of moving my feat in the right place.

    There's one technique at the end at the 1:02 mark that I wouldn't use. I know what the application is or better yet, what I was taught, but it doesn't make sense to me and I haven't figured it out yet. It's a grappling move but you grab/ trap using your forearms and not your hands. My guess it that it's probably an older technique that maybe some of the older Jow Ga teachers out there know. Probably have to find one of the ole skool teachers for that one. Other than that I would feel comfortable using all of the techniques that I know. with the exception of the grab with the forearms and the jump kick.
     
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  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    You are correct. For example, the double back fist really isn't a "double back fist" technique. In the form you are just training both arms at the same time. Can the double back fist be used in real life. Yes but only in specific situations like someone grabs both of my arms then I can land a double back fist, but in reality, I don't know when I would be in the position where someone would grab both of my arms in that manner., so when I train it, it's always from the perspective of training 2 arms at once, in application, I would use one arm to actually deliver it, It's the same with the double punch. Could I land it sure, more so in sparring than fighting. Only because I don't see myself in a position where I would be able to use it,

    Everything in that beginner form has a practical use either for fighting or training. The double fist while in horse stance teaches the sinking power that's needed for this strike. In the video it looks like the Sifu is using the back fist to strike the face. When I do the form, I have more of a downward energy movement because I'm use my backfist to attack the collar bone. There's no "right way" or "wrong way" for what you want to target with the backfist. So while he's targeting the face, I would be correct to target the collar bone.

    One you learn the form, then you still train it because the techniques have multiple uses., For example. That same back fist to strike the face or collar bone can be used to break an arm. There is also some "hidden" stuff in the form as well. These things aren't hidden on purpose, it's just that it looks like nothing important but in reality the movement has significance other than transitioning.
     
  9. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    To clarify, that's 4-5 months to get average with the form, then 2-3 months to clean up, and then continuous improvement? Is this taught before the techniques or after to reinforce them? How early into classes would someone start learning the form?

    The jump kick, is it at 1:09? We have a move that looks like that in some of our advanced forms.

    In Hapkido, we learn that while there is a "correct" grip for the locks, once you know the principle you can often modify it. I've applied wrist locks with my forearms, or even by pinning a hand against my chest and twisting my body to twist their wrist.
     
  10. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Correct Think of it like a sport. People practice until they gain average skills that allow them to play the game. Then after that it's just clean up and continuous improvement, where the serious athlete will try to reach that Pro level, while others may be happy with college level performance.

    The forms and techniques are taught at the same time. In the school I taught in, I would give the student 3 or 4 parts of the form at a time. So the student can either train these pieces individually or as in the form. Once they get average those 3 or 4 pieces, then will give them 3 or 4 more pieces to practice on top of what they already know.. We also did individual drills where we introduce techniques that are found in the form or in advanced forms. This way the technique isn't totally new when you get to the form. Drills also introduce techniques that aren't in the forms. For example, I learn how to do foot hooks outside of the forms as well as some strikes that aren't in any of the forms I know.

    Yes. That's where it fits in. You untwist jump and kick your opponent in the head.. The girl does the jump kick at 0:49


    The boy does the kick at 0:23


    Technically on your very first day. You will learn the basics and you'll drill those basics and you'll use those basics in the form. So by the time you actually start putting the form together you would have already done a majority of what's in the form. I taught a 5 year old girl and her father and the first month the 5 year old was good enough to start on the form. When we got to the form she didn't have any problem with it other than wanting to rush through it and focusing. She could follow along but her memory wasn't developed enough where she could remember it all on her own. She only got a little less than half way because some of was complicated for her in terms of coordination. Getting her body to do what her brain was trying to make it do. Her age made it a bigger challenge but that's something everyone experiences.regardless of age.

    I have yet to see how this technique works in Jow Ga. The application was explained to me but it still left me scratching my head., it didn't seem functional to me and I haven't learned enough about it yet o really understand it.
     
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  11. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Ah, that's a different one than I was thinking. We don't have that particular motion in any of our forms, but it looks similar to a tornado kick that we teach around green belt, or maybe a bastardized back kick that we would teach earlier than that.

    We teach the whole form at once, but we only expect people to remember parts of the forms. The idea in our school is to get their body used to the whole thing, even if they don't memorize it.

    Personally I'd rather teach the pieces until they're understood and move on, but in this case I follow my Master's teaching style. I think his style works better for a large group (which we usually have) and for some people his style works better.

    I mean, I'd have to see the technique itself. What I was describing was more of a modification of techniques that I already know work.

    I want to say probably 40% of our students start at age 4 or 5. It takes several months for them to learn the basic form I linked above. Which foot steps when, which hand blocks, things like that. The older kids and young adults its usually better, but if you get an adult that hasn't done any PE in years, they can struggle with the coordination as well.
     
  12. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    He may be dealing with the challenge of limited patience.that some students have. Some just want to learn forms, The more forms they learn the more they feel like they are accomplishing something.

    I've seen people quit simply because they didn't get into doing the actual form (not pieces) right away. That's always a challenge especially if you are depending on the school to make money. It can be difficult for people with very little patience who want to see results right away.

    So true.
     
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  13. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    This may be a consideration, but I think it's a secondary consideration. His philosophy is that you learn by doing. It would also be tough in a class of 20 people to do 4 moves, then have a couple people sit out, then a few more moves, and have more people sit out, and keep doing that in the middle of the form (and remember who needs to sit out).
     
  14. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    ahhhhh.. I didn't take into mind different teaching methods. So when I teach classes I do group drills and then break students off into their individual drills. So a class may do 15 minutes of a group drill and then I have students take up a spot on the floor so they can drill the sets that they are working on. Sometimes this will put students in similar groups while other times it will put them by themselves.

    This way no one sits out. We either do things as a group, even if it's difficult or we work on our individual tasks for that class. For example. @ 1:14, @ 5:26 and @7:21 is something that you would never see with the classes I teach. The longest time you would have to wait in line is however long it takes for the person in front of you to be far enough to not get hit or kicked.


    If there were 20 people then we would break out into stations and rotate students out after a certain amount of time. That way everyone gets to hit the bag or pads, just not at the same time. I have to keep in mind that people work the techniques in the classes differently.
     
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  15. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    We do that in the adult class. Kids classes if you have the kids break off into a small group they'll just do their drill once and then be like "we're done."
     
  16. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    We usually pair kids with their parents. Our policy made it mandatory that kids 5 - 7 had to train with Parents. This wasn't punishment, but it's their child so by having the parent participate the parent could help us keep the child in line and focused. Eventually what happens is that the children basically fall in line because they are doing what the "big kids /adults) are doing. The rest of the class helps lead by example simply by training, while the parents and instructors teach. One instructor is dedicated to adults and the other is dedicated to the kids and parents. So when I did group drills. The adults would go through a more advanced group drill and the kids would go through a group drill more of their speeds.

    We had a high number for parent and child students join. Most kids like to "show up" out perform their parents so I think that may have play a part in the success. I used to work with kids in a recreation center and in summer camp. The more adults the better especially if one or more adults were like big kids. Even at 47 I'm like a big kid. I usually took the kids because I would watch for their brains to fry. They handle the physical part but the mental part of trying to get their bodies to be coordinated drains them. When they hit that point then I break out the conditioning exercises and drop the kung fu in order to give them a break.

    I've known a few adults and teens who were like "we're done". The sifu's in our school would always reply, with "I didn't tell you to stop" or "keep going until I tell you to stop or until I tell you to work on something else" It was never said in a mean way, but the shock on the newbies face is always good for a silent chuckle that no one could see. Loud chuckles only caused more work..
    .
    To this day I don't ever remember any of them telling me to stop. I think we always practiced until the end of the class.123
     
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