AKKI: Shaping the Future of Kenpo?

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - General' started by KenpoEMT, Jul 25, 2005.

?

What is your opinion on the AKKI and it's direction?

Poll closed Dec 31, 1969.
  1. AKKI is leading us all to a superior form of Kenpo

    8 vote(s)
    6.7%
  2. Average AKKI member has a higher level of skill than the average member of another Association

    11 vote(s)
    9.2%
  3. AKKI members are just doing 'old' EPAK in a 'new' way

    11 vote(s)
    9.2%
  4. There is nothing special about the AKKI. Just another Org.

    34 vote(s)
    28.3%
  5. I don't know enough about this issue to make a valid judgement

    30 vote(s)
    25.0%
  6. AKKI members do not do American Kenpo

    11 vote(s)
    9.2%
  7. I don't care; I'm doing what I love

    28 vote(s)
    23.3%
  8. I am an AKKI member

    10 vote(s)
    8.3%
  9. I am not an AKKI member

    31 vote(s)
    25.8%
  10. What the heck is an "AKKI"?

    10 vote(s)
    8.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Brian Jones

    Brian Jones Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2003
    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Columbus, Oh
    You are right, demonstration vidoe offers no spontaneity. I am not even arguing if what is demonstrated is "anything special" (Doc's words). That's up to teh viewer and Mr. Mills doesn't need the likes of me to defend him. What I was saying is if we take this logic too far then why put any video out t here? Its never going to be perfect. Or we can just appreiciate a clip for what it is. By the way there is a CD of Mr. Mills "House of Pain Vol. 3" (I think) that does what you ask. Paul Mills doing the techniques on Ukes who know what is coming, and are permitted to resist the technique. Perhaps someone might have a clip of this they could put up or a link? It might provide ofr an interesting discussion.

    Brian Jones
     
  2. MHeeler

    MHeeler White Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I'll agree that the last sentence is perhaps a misapplication of the physics equations in question. However, when taken separately, both the descriptions of the physics involved and the description of the physical technique are accurate. Furthermore, to my knowledge, the AKKI has never claimed to be "scientific" in any way. They do claim to take a logical and rational approach to self-defense and motion; this is subjective, to be sure, as is the entire realm of martial arts.

    We both agree that v=dx/dt. (In any case, whether we agree or not, this is a mathematical fact. :ultracool ) However, when you begin speaking about acceleration, you're changing the nature of the argument. The AKKI statement did not address the acceleration of the striking hand. It should have, in my opinion, but that's moot.

    Muscular contraction cannot be adequately described using the physics model of kinematics. There is a small component of acceleration at the beginning of a contraction. However, this acceleration takes place during the initial micro- or nanoseconds of the muscle action. The rate of muscular velocity is entirely dependent upon a person's genetics, muscular phenotype, and level of muscular training. I suppose we could discuss neuromuscular physiology, muscle fiber biochemistry, and motor unit recruitment, but that would be far beyond the scope of this thread (probably the entire forum). In any case, maximum velocity is achieved at the very initiation of muscular contraction. Once full contraction/movement begins, no further velocity is achieved or possible. This is why it is possible to strike with maximum velocity while moving very short distances.

    You're right about the nature of the collision. I don't think physics can accurately describe the nature of flesh on flesh impact. There are probably far too many variables at play. As I said earlier, almost the entire realm of martial arts is subjective.

    I doubt the person who wrote the AKKI statement was even aware of this particular description of whip physics. I believe the analogy is making reference to the notion of progressive acceleration (each successive part of the chain accelerates independently, thereby increasing the total acceleration exponentially). From what I understood of the abstract you linked and your subsequent discussion, the analogy is still appropriate. While the "loop" may not be present, progressive acceleration is.

    Once again, I wouldn't call this "pseudo-science." It may be a misapplication of scientific principles; at the least it's an attempt to logically apply those principles to describe human movement. From my personal experience, these analogies have only been used to spark thought and understanding. That's a far cry from attempts to "trick the unwary." I agree that the existence of many people with those ulterior motives justifies a skeptical approach, but assuming those motives exist is far from objective. It depends on one's perspective, I guess.

    MH
     
  3. kenposikh

    kenposikh Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2003
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Seaton
    Hi Consider yourself wrong,

    I was at the LTKKA camp in June 2005 I am not a member of LTKKA and was welcomed with open arms made to feel like one of the family. HAd a great time.

    Amrik
     
  4. KenpoEMT

    KenpoEMT Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2005
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Right on.

    So, was it good? What was your favorite session?
     
  5. kenposikh

    kenposikh Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2003
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Seaton
    Yes it was excellent I thoroughly enjoyed the whole of my time while I was there. Sessions I took part in were excellent, I had a session with Clyde which was very interesting as well as Mr Kevin Mills from the UK who is my instructor as well but he and Clyde always amaze me with their knowledge of Kenpo.

    Frank Trejo was there and his session was brilliant as well as MAster Tatum's

    The Dinner was good although I was dissapointed there was no Dance afterwards so I could strut my stufgf all over the floor :)
     
  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    13,344
    Likes Received:
    2,780
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    I think I gotta back up Arnisador on this one. I see this desire to apply physics to kenpo and I just don't think it can be done in the way people seem to want to do it. Sure, physics in a general way can help you understand how speed and torque and mass combine to create striking power, but this is all nebulous. I think every martial art understands this and makes use of these principals. It is only the Kenpo people that I have seen who try to actively write physics equations about it.

    Combat is fluid and ever-changing. Thinking that physic can be directly and actively applied to a combat situation is misdirected. During a confrontation physics equations should be just about the last thing going thru your head.

    An understanding of anatomy and physiology is more directly applicable to martial training. I bet all arts use this information all the time. But physics is different.

    If someone can explain how physics is actively used in kenpo, in a combat situation, I would welcome the lesson. Examples that go beyond the abstract notions of torque and accelleration relating to power, are what I am asking for. thx.
     
  7. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Messages:
    4,196
    Likes Received:
    136
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Southern California
    If you go back into some old threads on the subject, I've said this many, many times. General Newtonian Physics apply, but that's all. The human body is a living breathing entity of connected tissue, fluids, semi-vicous material and solids that changes configuration from one jiffy second to the next. The use of physic equations to explain dynamic biomechanical function is ludicrous. A great smoke screen that simply spotlights the lack of understanding of human physiology and biomechanical actions. The human body is not an animated 2x4. Can Kenpo be scientific? Absolutely, but it's biomechnics, NOT physics teachers need to understand and should be discussing. Physics formulas in dynamic human interaction? Keep putting up formulas while the knowledgeable teach proper and useful biomechanics to students. Yep, now I've said it again. Gimme a buck. :) ( I don't drink coffee).
     
  8. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,560
    Likes Received:
    435
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    Yes, we're just not ready to tackle the whole problem. Look at membrane biphysics--trying to model the flow of nutrients across a single cellular membrane is already a challenging problem. Modeling the geometric shape of the human heart so as to understand surface conduction of the electrical charge that initiates the heart beat is a big challenge--just modeling its shape. I remember when a group at Duke U. came up with a detailed computer model of the lungs for the study of pollution's effects on people. It was a newsworthy item! All we can generally handle is isolated components, like electrical conduction along a short length of a nerve, or rough models, like the so-called "bathtub models" in pharmacology that model the body as having three components (blood, bone, tissue) that fill up with pharmaceuticals and empty them out like interconnected bathtubs.

    Punch someone in the sternum? That's like punching something (fairly)solid, but how does it affect what's behind the sternum? Punch someone a few inches lower, in the abdomen? That's more like punching a water bag. Punch them in the ribs? Well, now you have solid (albeit flexible) bone strips spaced periodically...it's a lot of work to just set up the model and equations, before even asking specific questions!

    I agree that physiology/anatomy/biomechanics are the key areas to consider. Much of the physics being used was developed for astronomy or ballistics (projectile motion). It's worth understanding some simple physics, yes, and that can often be relevant ("Why does the tip of the stick move so fast compared to the speed of the hand holding it?"). But most physics-based descriptions of techniques that I have read are either wrong or irrelevant.

    That doesn't mean there aren't more and less effective ways to do things. It just means we have to look elsewhere for the answers.
     
  9. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    13,344
    Likes Received:
    2,780
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Thank you for that. I'll send a buck, straight away! [​IMG]
     
  10. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Messages:
    4,196
    Likes Received:
    136
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Southern California
    We are in total agreement sir. But watch someone try it again in the near future. Biomechanics anyone? (As I jump over the net, racket in hand) :)
     
  11. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Messages:
    4,196
    Likes Received:
    136
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Southern California
    or diet Pepsi... :)
     
  12. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    20,311
    Likes Received:
    540
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    NH
    Flavored or unflavored?
     
  13. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Messages:
    4,196
    Likes Received:
    136
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Southern California
    Please, I'm the original "Pepsi Generation."
     
  14. masherdong

    masherdong 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    854
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Katy, Texas
    lol, now just do the moonwalk with Michael Jackson and Alphonso Ribiero.
     
  15. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Messages:
    4,196
    Likes Received:
    136
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Southern California
    You know, You run your mouth kinda reckless for a man that don't go heeled."
     
  16. NubreedKaliSilat

    NubreedKaliSilat Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Denver Colorado
    I have personally trained with and know Mr. Mills. He is a very gifted martial artist and friend. He has idea's of what his people should train in and has developed many concepts and principles that fit into his Kenpo System. I trained in his basement in Wyoming and I shared many Filipino martial art concepts and principles with him. He is a man who can take something and make it work for him. He is always developing and moving forward in his skills and his understanding of many arts. His Black Belt student's bring alot of information into the table as well. I seen him go from having a few student's in his basement to having a fine Association of hundereds of practitioners. His skills also comes from owning and running one of the best bars in Evanston Wyoming and learning what works in that area of being a door man-bouncer! Anyone who has the responsibility to promote self defense has to keep up with the jones's or marty's LOL
     
  17. Kenpojujitsu3

    Kenpojujitsu3 Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,221
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Are you saying you taught him some FMA?
     
  18. masherdong

    masherdong 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    854
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Katy, Texas
    Ooops, did I say something offensive? If so, my apologies.
     
  19. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Messages:
    4,196
    Likes Received:
    136
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Southern California
    You made a reference to a very old Coca Cola commercial. I responded in-kind with a quote from a movie. Can you name the film?
     
  20. IWishToLearn

    IWishToLearn 3rd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2005
    Messages:
    969
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Salinas, CA
    Tombstone, 1993. :)123
     

Share This Page