Aikido hate

[Brian R. VanCise]

No worries drop bear.

It is a technique from Aikido. I recently had the opportunity this summer to work out with one of your mates from down under Mal McRae and that as Oaktree also explained it is Kote Gaeshi from Aikido. It is also Omote Gyaku from Budo Taijutsu and yes you can find it in many other systems.
Still that does not mean it is not an Aikido technique!

 

[Steve]

Well understand what is said was when the founder has already gone through war and real life and death challenges. I think due to his very religious experiences and seeing combat his focus started to focus on a more higher calling. Understand that Japanese at least more modern times do not view learning martial arts for self defense, the idea that learning for street effectiveness doesn't apply in a place that is relatively safe at least when I was in Japan talking about self defense. Aikido at least before ww2 was a lot more brutal and more in line with Daito Ryu aikijujutsu.

There's a good point there. Often the founders of these styles had similar backgrounds. Whether it's aikido, karate or BJJ. In another thread, someone mentioned how common it was for samurai to become Buddhist monks later in life. The problem occurs, I think, when people try to skip the violent parts and jump right to the peaceful parts.

And I really enjoyed that article you linked to earlier.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Having also dealt with armed opponents (which I think we can all agree is not super common) I find this statement interesting, and I'd like you to expand on it, if you would.
I wouldn't say I've ever panicked. Do I get a huge adrenaline dump? Yes. But I've never panicked. By definition, if you're panicking, you're incapable of thought or, really, any sort of sensible, coordinated, response. Which means you're likely to be very unhappy with the outcome of the conflict. Assuming you're alive to be unhappy.
Are you saying you basically fall apart after the confrontation is over? That makes a lot more sense, honestly, but I don't think "panic" would be the correct term. in most cases.

Oaktree, I'm curious what it is about this that you disagree with.
Do you think that panic is conducive to clear, rational thinking?
Do you think it's unreasonable to fall apart (by which I mean come over all shaky and weak kneed) after an armed confrontation?
Or is it that you think dealing with armed attackers is a common, everyday occurrence for the average person?

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Well understand what is said was when the founder has already gone through war and real life and death challenges. I think due to his very religious experiences and seeing combat his focus started to focus on a more higher calling. Understand that Japanese at least more modern times do not view learning martial arts for self defense, the idea that learning for street effectiveness doesn't apply in a place that is relatively safe at least when I was in Japan talking about self defense. Aikido at least before ww2 was a lot more brutal and more in line with Daito Ryu aikijujutsu.

Very well said.

Probably one of the issues that divides allot of aikido practitioners is the fact that some aikidoka want to train the way it was taught in the earlier years and then you have the ones that want to train the way it was taught in the later years.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

I understand what you are saying, but the above question was what was Aikido meant for? I answered that...this is how and what we train for. The bar fight when 3 people are running at you, or in the dark alley when someone pulls a knife and their buddy is right behind them....this is what we train for.

So how do you determine you can handle 3 guys in a bar fight?

 

[drop bear]

Well it was a recognize technique kote gaeshi. The aiki is found in the leg that sweeps him. Understand the word 合气 has also the meaning of unbalancing. Borrowing a person's force and redirecting it is another principle it still follows the concept of unbalancing. To really understand aiki principles is to undertake swordsmanship.

Which is what i said about finding Aiki in all martial arts. See it looks like a throw that just uses pressure. But has aiki as well.

 

[drop bear]

No worries drop bear.

It is a technique from Aikido. I recently had the opportunity this summer to work out with one of your mates from down under Mal McRae and that as Oaktree also explained it is Kote Gaeshi from Aikido. It is also Omote Gyaku from Budo Taijutsu and yes you can find it in many other systems.
Still that does not mean it is not an Aikido technique!

And so a cake is eggs? We know aikido has that technique. But it would be like saying kung fu works in MMA because we see a vertical fist.

There is a whole lot more to the methodology of the system than seeing one generic move work.

 

[oaktree]

Oaktree, I'm curious what it is about this that you disagree with.
Do you think that panic is conducive to clear, rational thinking?
Do you think it's unreasonable to fall apart (by which I mean come over all shaky and weak kneed) after an armed confrontation?
Or is it that you think dealing with armed attackers is a common, everyday occurrence for the average person?

You can't be logical when you panic. I think being shaky after is normal. I am unsure what I said before that made you think I disagree with you.

 

[oftheherd1]

I just pointed out that aikido tournaments exist... I specifically did NOT vouch for their efficacy!

Those aikido tournaments are a rules-based structure, like any tournament... in other words, they are a game. In games, the knives don't have edges, at least not in that game, them's the rules boss.

But, unfortunately, games are not reality, so most of those dudes would, and I hate to say this about another aikido person trying their best to be legitimate... probably be bleeding out and wondering why. Not to say I wouldn't be lying there as well, I'd just not be at all confused by what had just happened.

Fight against a knife, get cut. End of tale. Maybe not dead-cut, but cut always. Unless the once in a lifetime universal continuum aligned in a perfect north-sough galactic axis spiral with purple snowflakes appearing in the out rim of galaxies, then maybe someone doesn't get cut. Pretty much any other time.

In the Hapkido I learned, knife defense is taught so that one doesn't get cut. But as with all techniques, you must be fast and accurate.

 

[oaktree]

There's a good point there. Often the founders of these styles had similar backgrounds. Whether it's aikido, karate or BJJ. In another thread, someone mentioned how common it was for samurai to become Buddhist monks later in life. The problem occurs, I think, when people try to skip the violent parts and jump right to the peaceful parts.

And I really enjoyed that article you linked to earlier.

Well Steve I can say that is why I became a Buddhist priest. I think if one lives through hardship such as violence you have two choices one is to continue down that path which will eventually destroy you and others or the alternative to seek peace and help others and I think that is what also happen to founder he saw a chance for his art to become more than just an art that taught violence and self defense, but an art that also taught understanding of the spiritual development.

 

[oftheherd1]

I'd still put my money on a BJJ blue belt or a white belt with a few years of BJJ training. I'd also put my money on a few year kick boxer over most black belts in aikido during a sparring match.

Now on a side note most shodan aikido could probably handle themselves decently against a non trained street thug which is perfectly fine for most aikidoka.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

You might be right. But I seriously doubt it. Of course on any given day, if your opponent is having the best day of his MA life, and you are having the worst, that will likely affect the outcome.

 

[oftheherd1]

Quite an article. It does reinforce my belief that "Defense against Aikido" is called the "don't attack" defense.

Seriously, though, it appears that Aikido, at least in its later years, is a kind of ritualized physical activity, sharing much in common with Tai Chi. Meditative, spiritual and healthful, with a historical, martial base.

Brilliant!

The weakness of Aikido has finally been outed. Thanks Steve.

 

[oaktree]

Oaktree, I'm curious what it is about this that you disagree with.
Do you think that panic is conducive to clear, rational thinking?
Do you think it's unreasonable to fall apart (by which I mean come over all shaky and weak kneed) after an armed confrontation?
Or is it that you think dealing with armed attackers is a common, everyday occurrence for the average person?

I see what happen I hit disagree by mistake or computer error sorry about that

 

[Spinedoc]

So how do you determine you can handle 3 guys in a bar fight?

You don't know until it actually happens, but we train with that in mind. We start beginners with what we call zombie randori. Basically, they stand in the middle while everyone acts like zombies and starts walking at them slowly. The goal is to learn tai sabaki and MOVE.....not really even execute techniques. Then as you advance you may start doing 2 person randori w one specific attack, usually ryote katadori to start. Then as you advance further, it eventually becomes a true randori, with 2-5 people attacking, and any attack is legitimate. Sometimes we even do 3 person weapons randori, where you will have someone attacking with a tanto, bokken, and jo. Obviously, the attacks are somewhat staggered with weapons to avoid anyone getting hurt, but not by much.

There are some solid principles to dealing with multiple attackers such as moving towards an attacker, and selecting the next one to deal with. Irimi, tenkan, movement....working the edges to avoid collapsing in the middle. Is it perfect? No, far from it....does it mean you will kick the **** out of multiple attackers if they come? No, not necessarily, but by training for it, even if that training is not how you would do it, we feel a little more comfortable handling that situation. YMMV.

Mike

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Aikido's principles are not designed around being usable for competition. Any skilled Aikidoka, for instance, can nullify most Aikido techniques. So, have tow skilled Aikidoka competing, and you have to stop looking for the "aiki" in your Aikido, and it starts to look more like Judo competitions. The same would be true for the Aikidoka facing anyone experienced in grappling (standing or ground). And since the opponent has a chance to study you, they know you're going to use aiki, and even the strikers will know to under-commit, taking away much of the "aiki". In a committed attack, that doesn't happen.

Been meaning to reply to this, but I've been fighting off a bug for the last couple of weeks and my brain has been a bit too fuzzy for writing coherently very much.

I think there is more aiki occurring in Judo competition than you see, but it only happens for split seconds at a time, which makes it hard to perceive.

As you note, an experienced grappler will know to maintain a solid, well-balanced base and avoid overcommitting momentum. So as a judoka, you start the match by trying to disrupt that base with kuzushi - pulling, pushing, maybe throwing a few light foot sweeps. No aiki so far. You can generally assume that your opponent's base will be good enough that you can't just pull him off his base and into a throw right away. But he does have to react to that kuzushi somehow. If he doesn't, then his base and posture will become progressively more compromised and you will be able to just step in and force the throw. So then you try to time his reaction to your kuzushi and use it to your advantage. Perhaps you pull him forward and as he resists that action you switch your direction to move with his energy for a backwards throw. It's still not aiki, because he's just adjusting his posture and not giving you enough energy to complete the throw. But now you're coming in with what you've referred to in other comments as "Judo mechanics", applying powerful kuzushi, body alignment, leverage, etc to force the throw. Since your opponent was already moving in the same direction anyway, it's a lot harder for him to just settle into his base and stuff the throw. Now he has to commit to a bigger action to stop your entry or launch an counter-attack of his own. In this moment, one or both players have finally committed to some serious momentum. This is the moment where the opportunity exists for one of the judoka to find that perfect timing, that perfect positioning, to blend with their opponent's movement and make the throw completely effortless. The match may have gone on for four minutes, but the aiki happened in just a split second at the end. (Furthermore, the aiki opportunity would not have arisen if not for the other threats which were brought to bear beforehand.)

It doesn't always happen, of course. More often the judoka will compromise the opponent's balance just enough or blend with their energy just enough so that when he or she enters with a forceful throw using good body mechanics the opponent cannot adjust in time. I believe this is what you mean when you refer to "Judo approach" as opposed to "Aiki approach". But it does happen. I'm a crappy judoka myself (probably equivalent to a mediocre brown belt when it comes to throws) and I've experienced multiple times that sense of my opponent seeming to throw himself with no real effort on my part. I'm sure any high-level judoka has experienced it much more frequently.

The Nage no Kata practiced in Judo took some getting used to when I had the opportunity to practice it. It basically requires the uke to deliver the sort of energy you might see in an Aikido demo. When performing the uke role I felt like I was expected to practically throw myself and it took concentration to not ground myself and adjust my base to avoid doing so. Afterwards I came up with the theory that the purpose of the kata is do simulate that "aiki" feel of the ideal throw where the opponent gives you all the energy you need to and all you have to do is let the throw happen. Since randori and shiai typically require a lot more aggressive work it would be easy for a judoka to fall into the mindset of always athletically forcing the throw. Doing the kata may be meant as a reminder to recognize and use those "aiki" opportunities when they occur.

The Aikido folks here can correct me if I'm wrong, but from watching classes and demos and reading things written by Aikido practitioners, it seems like most Aikido practice is commonly focused more around the idea of the opponent feeding you that fully (or over-) committed attack energy continuously right from the beginning so they never have to apply anything but aiki. Obviously this is problematic for competition. There's a greater chance of an untrained street attacker giving you that kind of energy, but you can't necessarily count on it in that context either. I do think there is value in recognizing and being able to use the opportunities for aiki when they occur. Even more value if you have the skills to provoke your opponent into creating those opportunities. I'm just not sure that training in a context where your uke gives you the openings to apply aiki for free every time is the best way to develop those abilities.

Thoughts?

 

[oaktree]

To help address what aiki is

Aiki: the term we toss about glibly whose meaning no one agrees on by Stanley Pranin

 

[Buka]

Aikido works just fine for what it is designed for.

Here we see a police officer utilizing an Aikido like technique easily and disarming a knife:

I know Aikidoka who have worked in law enforcement, corrections, etc. They were all pleased with the efficiency of their chosen system.

That was nicely done. I enjoyed that clip.

I don't know where that is originally from, what it is called by whom - or who, if any, have a problem with it. But it sure worked okay.

Life as an infidel is sometimes easy.

 

[JP3]

Thoughts?

I agree with most of what you've said, and like with Gerry, I think the difference in what I think as vs. yours is based in my definitional nomenclature, as I've grown to understand it. For me... I tend to think there's aiki all over the place, to be taken advantage of and used, whereas to me it appears that you and Gerry share the viewpoint that for it to be aiki at all it needs to fall into that well-nigh effortless category. You guys may be right, I'm not so awesome or arrogant to assert that my concept defeats yours. However, in explanation, in yours above you're discussing the increasing breakdown of posture inherent in the opponent-uke, using kuzushi to induce movement or affect posture, and I think there's aiki all over the Subtle application of "building" kuzushi as you described above.

 

[Spinedoc]

I think the whole concept of Aiki though has little to do with techniques, at least as I have been taught. In a general sense it has nothing to with external movements or harmonizing with an opponent, etc. It has to do with harmonizing with your own spirit internally. It's difficult to explain to be honest....

 

[Steve]