Speed?Power?Accuracy?
- Thread starter Tgace
- Start date
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
Shooting, or doing just about anything else, in armor is a whole different game. And it seems like 90% of LE incidents are in overlyy close quarters!
Cruentus
Grandmaster
dearnis.com said:
I can see that...and it seems like the CAR system would work in tight spaces. What I question is if it is superior then other methods available, because I am not convinced that it is. I would have to put it under test conditions to find out. It may be something that is good for LE, and just not for me. For me, I don't see why I wouldn't just point shoot or even hip shoot if it is real close. If the spaces are so tight, my accuracy seems like it would do the job without having to sight with the CAR system.
I have limited exposure with body armor though...I've only tried on the light stuff that didn't seem to effect my mobility enough to need a different method. Haven't put on the big plates yet, though, so I wouldn't know much about that...Maybe CAR is more comfortable with heavy armor, but again, I would have to test that one for myself to believe it.
Paul
loki09789
Senior Master
CAR system is not for everyone because everyone isn't wearing body armor as an asset (protection that you can rely on to stop rounds will affect firing stances) and a draw back (wt. increases fatigue, reduced speed/mobility/agility).Tulisan said:
Personally, as a civilian especially, practicing the instinct shooting skills should include bringing the weapon to the centerline with the muzzle pointed straight away from me, whether in close (elbows tucked into ribs) or extended (iso stance/weaver/turret/what ever) because that 'touch reference' and orientation increases retentionability in close contact situations AND allows me to use it as a non ballistic/impact weapon as well. You do run the risk of creating a malfunction or misfire if you do this too much or in a way that affects the firing of the weapon but the goal is self defense - if I hit a guy in the face with a hunk of steel shaped like a gun and it takes the fight out of him...I buy time and 'win' the escape opportunity
CAR applications are primarily designed for someone that is part of a tactical unit that has assets that a single civilian will not. But also will be limited on what he/she can do because of the 'mission' and the desire to maintain the dynamic movement of the team. A civlian defensive firearms user can move in all directions without worrying about formations.
The only analogy I can think of now is the difference between a Gladiator using spear and Gladius compared to a Roman Legionare using the same weapons. They may know the same list of techniques but the situation and context/goal changes what is appropriate for techniques, movement, stance...
CAR system is like the approach that a Legionare would train to apply his skills and a civilian defensive curriculum/system would be like the approach that a Gladiator would train to apply his skills (because he is fighting as an individual instead of as a member of a team/group).
Of course there are going to be some things that each would benefit from understanding and 'stealing' from the other system, but the 'system' won't work wholesale.
OP
Tgace
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 7,766
- Reaction score
- 409
- Thread Starter
- #45
Some CAR video clips...
http://www.sabretactical.com/C_A_R_/Video_Clips/video_clips.html
As you can see it looks like it incorporates some "point" and apparently some "flash sight picture" components.
http://www.sabretactical.com/C_A_R_/Video_Clips/video_clips.html
As you can see it looks like it incorporates some "point" and apparently some "flash sight picture" components.
modarnis
Purple Belt
>>>best put the biggest hole you can reliably direct into the most important target you can hit....repeat as necessary.>>>
__________________
Chad, what can I say, you should be in advertising..... :ultracool
__________________
Chad, what can I say, you should be in advertising..... :ultracool
loki09789
Senior Master
The 'reaction' video is what I would consider the most important as a civilian shooter to adapt/adopt from it. The idea that you don't rely entirely on the firearm and build it into a response continuum that includes striking and movement is the most helpful.
Good shooting. As a civilian shooter, if someone witnessed me shooting from that low center/chamber position and was a witness, it might be used against me as 'unaimed' shooting. Not something to think about in the moment but it is important to consider when you are training and when you are formulating a statement after an incident.
Good shooting. As a civilian shooter, if someone witnessed me shooting from that low center/chamber position and was a witness, it might be used against me as 'unaimed' shooting. Not something to think about in the moment but it is important to consider when you are training and when you are formulating a statement after an incident.
arnisandyz
Master Black Belt
Tgace said:
Good practice for this type of "point shooting" is bird hunting or skeet shooting. You don't have time to aim, most shotguns have a bead sight (rather than traditional sights) for this reason. My uncle use to use a small 410 when skeet shooting and he would do as well as my cousin and I would using 12G or 20G. Most people think of a 410 as a"kids gun" but in all actuality, in order to do the same job with a 410 your point shooting must be that much better.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
These are good points about touch referencing and using the gun to "punch" a guy when in close. All components of the applegate method...
Paul
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
Good points, especially on the 410 as an experts gun. I don't think use of a shotgun really counts as "point shooting" though. The platform is different and it functions differently. I know ModArnis has told me that his handgun work suffers when he is really putting time in on shotgun work (and I've seen him having a "mediocre day" shooting clays; the guy is no slouch!!) About the only analogy to point shooting would be the use of slugs or bucksoht at semi-stationary or stationary targets, and I have seen horrendous misses with both at 12-15 yards.
I would argue that with a shotgun at moving targets sight picture, and especially consistent follow-through, is far and away the key attribute...but shitgunners see sighst and sighting differently than other shooters. (I think most serious shotgunners wil agree on follow-through though).
If you have ever put any time into shooting moving targets with a handgun you see the same thing; especially at range you will miss just pointing...you must use the sights and must follow through!!
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Chad...what's a "poopgunner"? Is that one of those DE Cop things? :rofl:
Sorry, couldn't resist!
As to point shooting methods with the long gun (shotgun or rifle), even though the form is different, the fundamental concept seems to be the same.
I have read the "Quick Kill" military manual that details point shooting with a rifle. I personally know someone who can point shoot with a shotgun.
I have not had the chance to try this myself yet, though, as I am mainly a handgun guy. I would love to try some of these methods with skeets and see how I do.
The only thing with long gun point shooting is I am not sure for up to what range it is good for. For a pistol, if your good you won't see a significant difference when combat shooting from 30 feet between sited and unsited fire; at 50 feet there is a significant difference, but your still hitting a man sized target; over that, it's real iffy. For a long gun, there is less chance for error due to the barrel length, so it seems to make sense that your point shooting methods would work at longer ranges. But having limited experience with this myself, I would not know for sure.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Tgace said:
About Lou...and this is my understanding of it....he has been a pioneer to a degree.
Sure, it is true that he did not invent the wheel. Nor did Applegate for that matter. THey all built upon what was previously taught to them.
What Lou brought back to the table was being able to point shoot at a 360 degree radius from your vantage point without having to square with your target.
The way it was explained to me was that pre-Fairbairn and Sykes, American Western and British gunfighting methods were a bit different in that you learned to shoot without having to square or face both shoulders to the target. My theory is that this was propigated due to the use of the horse. On horseback, you were moving in a given direction, but you still had to be able to shoot 360 degrees from your vantage point as you moved....like you were a gun turret. This carried over to moving and shooting on foot. In old pre-WWI western and European shooting, you could square up extended, square and hip shoot, or move while shooting and not be squared at all. All these were practiced in totality. Fairbairn learned these methods, but simplified them. When he and his guys were in Shainghai, they were not on horseback; and he realized the tendency for a person to naturally square up on the target when under stress. Fairbairn wisely wanted to work within the constrains of the SNS response, so he focused his method on squaring with the target, among other things. This method was taught to Applegate, as well as to others, but Applegate was responsible for perfecting and expanding these methods. Lou learned from Applegate, but he expanded these methods from him, re-introducing the 360 vantage point shooting without having to square on his own accord. If the SNS causes you to square, then this is no problem and Lou teaches to work off that. But, idealistically he teaches you to move to cover (which can be a natural reaction as well when being shot at). While moving to cover (whether going towards your threat on an angle as Applegate suggests or not) you can shoot like your upper body is a gun turret in any direction with his modification and training method.
So, I think Lou has done a lot that many may not want to accredit him for.
The progression seems to have gone from [practicing not needing to square to threat] to [practicing mainly square to threat] back to [practicing not needing to square to threat]. Because of Lou, it seems the system has made a full circle, but a very important one for the advancement of modern gunfighting methods.
Paul
OP
Tgace
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 7,766
- Reaction score
- 409
- Thread Starter
- #53
The one issue that seldom gets addressed in the point vs. aimed debate is training. I believe that a well trained point shooter will shoot better than a "hacker" sighted shooter and vice versa.....
I know the "take two equally trained shooters...." scenario will come up and to that I say, "then you better start training harder to become better than the other guy."
I know the "take two equally trained shooters...." scenario will come up and to that I say, "then you better start training harder to become better than the other guy."
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Tgace said:
I agree for sure. That is why I compared the different shooting methods to being like one martial art vs. another. In most cases, it comes down to skill and training of the individual.
OP
Tgace
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 7,766
- Reaction score
- 409
- Thread Starter
- #56
IMO, while hitting the target is "job 1" with firearms, a close 2nd is "weapon manipulation". Loading, clearing malfunctions, draw/holster, even assembly/dissassembly are all skills that while seemingly tangental, pay off dividends in the long run.
Not to blow my own horn, but I won a local SWAT round-up competition (individual event) last fall. While accuracy and good old foot speed were big components, what contributed the most IMO was faster and smoother loading/clearing and "make safe" proceedures. As part of "train up" I would spend hours at home drawing, loading, unloading, failure drilling, transitioning, even field stripping/assembling, I also would visualize the different stages of the event and focus on each weapon and the proceedure of how to load, engage and make safe each one. It was the difference IMO....that way when you are on the street and your weapon goes dry or goes "click" instead of "bang" you will go auto-pilot....
Not to blow my own horn, but I won a local SWAT round-up competition (individual event) last fall. While accuracy and good old foot speed were big components, what contributed the most IMO was faster and smoother loading/clearing and "make safe" proceedures. As part of "train up" I would spend hours at home drawing, loading, unloading, failure drilling, transitioning, even field stripping/assembling, I also would visualize the different stages of the event and focus on each weapon and the proceedure of how to load, engage and make safe each one. It was the difference IMO....that way when you are on the street and your weapon goes dry or goes "click" instead of "bang" you will go auto-pilot....
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
Paul- yes it is a DE cop thing; lack of coffee = typo. Ooops. Either that or I was point typing....
Keep in mind that shooting clays (or birds) is fundamentally different from shooting grounded targets. That is to say the mechanics are different.
Tom is right on; in the total picture it is smoothness that wins the game. Just like stick work; train for smoothness and speed will come!
Years back when I was into archery (where I was very much an advocate of instinctive rather than aimed shooting) I recall a guy doing demos where he would shoot aspirin tablets out of the air with an unsighted primitive bow; I forget the name, but it was impressive. On the other side of the coin, Jeff Cooper used to train people to take clay birds on the fly...with .308 rifles and sighted fire.
It all comes down to training. That said, I will still argue that poit shooting is a far more perishable skill requiring much more practice to maintain. As to point shooting with a rifle...sure...BUT NOT AT RIFLE DISTANCES!
Keep in mind that shooting clays (or birds) is fundamentally different from shooting grounded targets. That is to say the mechanics are different.
Tom is right on; in the total picture it is smoothness that wins the game. Just like stick work; train for smoothness and speed will come!
Years back when I was into archery (where I was very much an advocate of instinctive rather than aimed shooting) I recall a guy doing demos where he would shoot aspirin tablets out of the air with an unsighted primitive bow; I forget the name, but it was impressive. On the other side of the coin, Jeff Cooper used to train people to take clay birds on the fly...with .308 rifles and sighted fire.
It all comes down to training. That said, I will still argue that poit shooting is a far more perishable skill requiring much more practice to maintain. As to point shooting with a rifle...sure...BUT NOT AT RIFLE DISTANCES!
OP
Tgace
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 7,766
- Reaction score
- 409
- Thread Starter
- #58
Just on the slim chance that nobody has already seen this....
The Rules of Gunfighting
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring two guns. Bring all your friends who have guns. Bring their friends who have guns. (Contractor's: procure as many as possible from all available sources).
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
3. Only hits count. Close does not count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss. Don't be slow.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough, nor using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun. His friends should also be close by and they should have guns.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance or tactics. They will remember who lived and who didn't.... So plan on living to tell the story.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading or running (bounding back).
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting is more dependent on pucker factor than inherent accuracy of the gun.
10. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket".
11. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
12. In combat, there are no rules, always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
13. Have a plan.
14. Have a back up plan, because the first one will not work.
15. Use cover and concealment as much as possible. The visible target should be in FRONT of YOUR gun.
16. Flank your adversary when possible, protect yours.
17. Don't drop your guard.
18. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
19. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else keep your hands where I can see them.)
20. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH. Dominate the situation!
21. The faster you finish the fight, the less shots you will get.
22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
23. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
24. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence and de-escalation.
25. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4".
The Rules of Gunfighting
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring two guns. Bring all your friends who have guns. Bring their friends who have guns. (Contractor's: procure as many as possible from all available sources).
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
3. Only hits count. Close does not count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss. Don't be slow.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough, nor using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun. His friends should also be close by and they should have guns.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance or tactics. They will remember who lived and who didn't.... So plan on living to tell the story.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading or running (bounding back).
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting is more dependent on pucker factor than inherent accuracy of the gun.
10. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket".
11. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
12. In combat, there are no rules, always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
13. Have a plan.
14. Have a back up plan, because the first one will not work.
15. Use cover and concealment as much as possible. The visible target should be in FRONT of YOUR gun.
16. Flank your adversary when possible, protect yours.
17. Don't drop your guard.
18. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
19. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else keep your hands where I can see them.)
20. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH. Dominate the situation!
21. The faster you finish the fight, the less shots you will get.
22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
23. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
24. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence and de-escalation.
25. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4".
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
Good addition!
KenpoTex
Senior Master
"The term One Shot Stop is stupid. Anyone who thinks their bullet will stop a man with one shot is suicidal, anyone who only shoots once is poorly trained." -Gabe Suarez
That's just good advice. Along those lines, another one I like is: "If you're in a fair fight you're doing something wrong"
Amen!
