6 year old first dan??? whiskey tango foxtrot!

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by TSDTexan, May 7, 2019.

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  1. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    It is a very good question that I do not have an answer for. But I feel there is a minimum standard. This would be a great exercise for someone who is up to the task of weighting different aspects that are common to the majority of MA's.
    The why is to maintain value in MA's and not letting it wash away into to obscurity.
     
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  2. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    What?
     
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  3. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Both examples are measurable so they are not subjective. But I get what you are saying.
     
  4. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    I recognize that form as a version of kong sang koon. What is it called in Shotokan?
     
  5. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Is that question about go, or chess' elo ratings?
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I think you have some internally inconsistent views on the value of college. But For what it’s worth, I, too, am a fan of practical degrees and certificates from trade programs. I’m also a big fan of apprenticeships.

    I was saying, styles have reputations, schools have reputations, and where belts have a practical, objective purpose, they remain meaningful (e.g., competition). Same as degrees. You can’t be a doctor without a medical degree. Can’t be a pharmacologist without a degree. Architects, engineers, etc all require degrees. And where the degrees are not intrinsically tied to a practical education, they can be exploited at for profit schools, where kids tend to go into a lot of debt.

    So what more could we do in MA, and what good do you think will come of it?
     
  7. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    You keep bringing up ELO. you’re bringing me down man. Don’t bring me down.

     
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  8. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master of Arts

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    kusanku (dai)
    Here is Rika Usami doing it.



    There are two Kusanku kata.

    Kusanku Sho
    and
    Kusanku Dai

    And the older... earlier version of Kusanku/Kong Sang Koon... found its way to Korea from Okinawa... through Japan. Several versions of Kong Sang Koon made it to Korea, one was the Shotokan version, and then there was the Shudokan version, and lastly the Shito ryu version. I have seen Koreans perform these versions (with changes that time brings)
     
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  9. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    What I mean is that in scenario 1, the way in which you obtain a rank is based on a static goal, whereas in scenario 2 it's a dynamic goal.
     
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    One problem with trying to create a minimum standard across all MA is that there are too many approaches, and too many different priorities.
    • Many arts have no forms, so we can't use anything about forms as a common standard.
    • Some places aren't focused on anything but competition, with no interest in effectiveness outside those competitions. And those competitions vary widely (think MMA, compared to Judo, compared to Kendo, compared to fencing, compared to Olympic TKD), so there's no common standard there.
    • Some places are practicing for reasons other than actual fight prep, so effectiveness for fighting isn't a common standard (unless we use a definition of MA that excludes these).
    • Some systems don't have a set of delineated, standard techniques, and those that do have widely varying numbers (and ways of identifying what is a "different technique" when counting) so we can't even say X number of techniques.
    • Then we have the issue of difference of opinion of what the minimum should be.
    I'm not sure where we'd find a common ground that's not highly subjective.
     
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  11. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Who is being inconsistent? A person can find gainful employment and use the titles you mention, even in the U.S without a degree. Their liability would be considerably greater since they would not have documented and certified education and training to support that they are qualified to do the work. As you say, this is an area where reputation carries weight. There are still "doctors" in the eastern mountains of TN whose only training is the generations of education handed down to them from their family. Would I use one if I were in the mountains and fell and injured myself or fell sick? Yes. Would I follow up with other resources? Most likely.

    I have never had a fully non-degreed engineer work for me but I have worked with quite a few. Their title was awarded by the company they worked for and most were more than qualified. The main differences you see in this scenario is that their field of knowledge it very specific, limited to the needs of their company. Get them outside their specific knowledge and they can have trouble talking in generalities. This is an area where a good college education provides great value.
    At the end of the day, there are not many people who are highly successful with only one of the two components (college only or OTJ training). They would fall in my exception category.
     
  12. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Yea, that is a language I do not understand. :confused:
     
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  13. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    I am spit balling.
    Your second bullet would fall into martial sport so could be factored out. There are tome styles like TKD that have both.
    Similar styles could find enough common ground to be grouped together like fields in upper education (engineering, arts, teaching, etc...)?
    Delineation of technique could be tough but should be a qualifier. Just like most colleges require a specific subject (humanities for example)be mastered before attaining a degree. There is variability in this mastery from school to school but it implies proficiency.
    Not many people actively practicing a MA are doing so as a form of income. That is a big underlying factor. But I strongly feel there can and should be universal qualifiers to hold certain levels. There are dozens of different Doctorate degrees (like different styles). I usually hold someone in a different regard when I see PhD after their name. Until they give me a reason not to.
     
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  14. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    it would seem the first 5hing to do, would be to pick a minimum level of " fitness " so strengh, mobility reactions, endurance etc, that's very easy to do and very easy to measure. then at least you have a level playing field to assess the various skill levels against.

    just as you would have a minimum IQ level to even be considered for a phd, they dont wait till the end of the course to decided your to stupid
     
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  15. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

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    Fair enough. Yeah, just this school.
     
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  16. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    Ok, I will set the minimum standard for black belts, that all arts must follow. The requirements are as follows:

    1. Fitness - run a mile in under 7 minutes, 50 sit ups in 1 minute, 10 pull ups and can continuously jump rope for 3 minutes.
    2. Demonstrate all the Heian Katas
    3. Demonstrate 20 Bunkai found in the Heian Katas
    This should be good. Unless you practice something other than Shotokan Karate. The Judo, Jujitsu, BJJ guys are going to be really upset that they have to learn these silly kata. But I guess we should have separate standards for different groups of arts... one for striking arts and one for grappling arts. Ok, use the above for striking arts... too bad if you study TKD... in addition to those Taegeuk forms, now you have to also learn the Heians, because you will be graded only on the Heians. Now for grappling arts:

    1. Fitness - run a mile in under 7 minutes, 50 sit ups in 1 minute, 10 pull ups and can continuously jump rope for 3 minutes.
    2. Demonstrate 20 throws
    3. Compete in and win a local Judo tournament
    Sorry BJJ guys... you have to compete in Judo to get rank. But hey, now that we all agree, we finally have a minimum standard for black belt.

    A bunch of you reading this are saying to yourselves, "Who are you and who gave you the authority to set the standards? These don't reflect my art at all." And you would be right. But aren't we all doing this? We are looking at other schools and other arts and deciding for them, what their minimum standard should be, based on the standard we have at our own school. And we have exactly the same authority to do this as I have to set a universal standard for all arts... None.

    Take some time and read the threads on this site about how to find a Martial Arts school. What are people told to do? Go watch the class or take the free class if they offer one. Watch the instructor to see if you get along with his teaching style. Watch the upper rank students and assistant instructors to see if they can do what is being taught. Essentially, we tell people to go see what the instructor can do, and what he can teach his students to do. Use that to determine if it is a good school to go to.

    Any school can set any standard they want for black belt. However, every school will be judged by the quality of those black belts, by the eyes of the public. That includes other martial artists and non-martial artists. And if some other school has a higher, lower or just plain silly standard... so what? That standard only effects you if you join that school. So the important thing is to make sure that you agree with the standards that are set where you train. If the standards are a little low, you can find ways to push them up. Or train somewhere else. Those standards are going to vary, even within the same art and the same organization. This is why we tell people looking for an art, to find a good instructor over finding a particular art. A good instructor will have good standards, and students rising to meet those standards. Your idea of good standards may change as you progress...
     
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  17. vince1

    vince1 Orange Belt

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    I totally agree with every school or martial art having different standards to obtain a black belt and have experienced this myself. I remember clearly as a kid being enrolled in TaeKwonDo/Hapkido and quickly moving through the ranks to get my red belt. I had a gymnastic background prior to being enrolled into TaeKwonDo.I found the forms relatively easy along with gymnastic ability got me to a high rank in a short period of time.

    Fast forward to my current martial art Aiki Jiu Jitsu. It will take many years to obtain a black belt ,not because of my lack of physical ability but because of the standard, quantity of material that I need to learn. I like the challenge and have a much greater appreciation for past Masters that created this particular martial art based on, hands on experience.

    So when I see a child with the rank of black belt I see a child with a huge amount of potential in the coming years. More than likely when this child gets older will experiment with other martial arts wanting to learn more.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  18. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I think this thread has jumped the shark. :)
     
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  19. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    isn't that a bit easy on the fitness.? that really shouldnt a challenge for any one under 50( who has any pretence of being fit) if , as seems to be the case on here, we want bla k belts to be considered elite, then the fitness standards need to be elite as well. not sure quite were that should be ,! top 5% , top 10% of the population by age . certainly no lower than the upper quartile, or it really does stop being elite and just gets very ordinary.



    not sure an ability to memorise dance moves should be included, technique s yes, but in any order against a fully resisting partner, ie if you cant kick him in the head, you've failed your kicking exam if you do get kicked in the head, you've failed your moving out of the way exam.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
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  20. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    That was awesome.

    So....if you're the parents of the girl in the OP do you even see the difference?

    Are there people who don't see the difference? What about the poor kid from the OP, would she see the difference? I know every kid I've ever trained would see and know the difference.123
     
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