Yudansha Fighting System/Association??

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K831

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Hey folks,

I have a brother who moved and is looking into training again. There is a “Yudansha Fighting Association” club nearby, and I told him I would help him look into it.

So, who is familiar with this association?

The founder/head is Mike Veros.

Bio page says:

“Yudansha Fighting System was founded by Sensei Mike Veros in 1988. Mike is a holder of 7th degree black belt under the Danzan Ryu Jujitsu Association, a 2nd degree black belt in Judo, and is also a certified Arnis Instructor.”

However the art is purportedly based on “Traditional Jui Jitsu, Judo and Muay Thai”.

Here is a link to the main page:

http://www.yudanshafight.org/training.html

Here is a link to the facebook page;

http://www.facebook.com/yudanshafight?sk=info

And lastly, this page shows all the requirements for each belt rank in the system;

http://www.yudanshafight.org/testing.html

They seem to be pretty transparent in terms of the instructor and his background, and their requirements for belts and training methodology, however, I donÂ’t know anything about the man, nor do I know much about Danzan Ryu Jujitsu or Judo.

Also, I have seen that when new “systems” or “associations” spring up and attempt to mix several arts, the students sometimes end up with a watered down version of each. I’m ok if its “streamlined” and the technique is still good, however, if its “watered down” and taught by someone who lacks complete understanding of the techniques... well, that’s no bueno.

Any knowledge out there on this association, their reputation, and the general quality of the system and instruction?
And for those of you who are proficient with Judo/JuijitsuÂ… how do their requirements look?

For anyone reading this who is associated with the group, I don't intend this to be accusatory. I recognize they could be awesome, or garbage. I just don't know.

Thanks.
 
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K831

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No one knows anything about these guys eh? Well, if any JJJ or Judo guys could look over the requirements, I'd appreciate that too... I'm curious how complete the system is at least on the grappling side!
 

Chris Parker

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Based on the website alone I'd give them a wide berth. The site is full of misunderstanding, empty rhetoric, cliche's, and a complete lack of any real knowledge or understanding of anything they are talking about.
 

lklawson

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One of my Judo instructors was ranked by Ancho. If you'd like, I'll ask him Monday night if he recognizes Mike Veros.

That said, a quick google search fails to come up with any hits for Mike Veros in association with Danzan Ryu outside of his own website. For a 7th Dan, this seems more than a bit odd. 7th Dan ranks in Danzan aren't so common that they go undocumented most of the time so this raises a red flag.

As for the Judo part, well, a 2nd Dan is Judo, if it's a real rank, isn't anything to sneeze at. Judo is one of the few arts that seems to have done a decent job at imparting real skill and political ranks don't seem to really start becoming a problem for most of the different Judo orgs until somewhere around 3-5th Dans.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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K831

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I appreciate both of your comments.

Kirk, yes, please ask. One of their students apparently does decently in local grappling competitions, so there is a little Judo/JJ knowledge coming from somewhere. I had the same thought though... a 7th in Danzan and a 2nd in Judo? I ought to be able to find record of that. I'll keep poking around, but I appreciate the help.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I used to train with some of Veros's students back in the day (Brian Johnson, Mark Connally and Desmond Wong, when they were living and teaching in Ohio). I only met Veros once, at a seminar.

I'd say the training was decent, but not spectacular. There was a reasonably even blend of judo-style throws (the instructors were probably judo black-belt level), ground-fighting (maybe BJJ blue belt level), and self-defense moves using standing wrist locks and the like. (The level of instruction for the wrist locks, etc was about the same as I had been receiving at the Dayton Bujinkan Dojo. Caveat - the level of instruction for the Bujinkan in the US was not that advanced back then.) We did regular light-contact sparring and randori. They had a Muay Thai instructor teaching at the facilities, but Brian and Mark were not conversant in Muay Thai - their striking seemed to come more from a point karate base.

The training environment was pretty friendly and open-minded.

Brian and Mark competed in the USJJA and were on Ernie Boggs's US sports jujitsu team one year.

The one time I met Veros, he seemed like a pretty strong grappler. I don't know who his Danzan Ryu instructor was or if his DZR rank is legit. The curriculum does seem to track pretty closely with what I've read of DZR and videos I've seen of early DZR training. To his credit, Veros's website does provide a comparison chart so you can see where his testing requirements diverge from the DZR original.

Depending on what your brother is looking for and what other schools are available in the area, it might be worth checking out.
 
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K831

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Tony, very helpful, thank you.

My brother has about a year of BJJ and a few months of Judo. He is a decent boxer. He is looking for a place to get some sparring, and improve his grappling, both ground game and clinch/throwing etc.

Sounds like, while it may not be the premier school, they have enough to offer that it's worth his checking out. One of the names you mentioned is apparently the head instructor where he lives, so your info is particularly timely.
 

lklawson

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OK, here's what I found out by talking to people who were in Danzan and trained during that time. Veros did, indeed, train in Danzan, at least some of it was under Ancho. He trained for between 2 and 3 years before opening his own school and beginning his own organization which, apparently became the Yudansha Fighting Association. During that time he also trained in Judo. By eye-witness accounts, men who actually randoried with the gentleman in question, he was a decent-to-good Judo player for his experience level.

Mr. Veros, apparently, waited until Ancho Sensei left the Dayton area (appointing a series of hand-picked instructors to continue teaching in his school - Veros was not among them) and then Mr. Veros opened a competing Dojo teaching Danzan (with this 3 years or less experience). However, apparently Mr. Veros is extremely adept at marketing and business and he choose a more favorable time and day to teach and deliberately marketed to children. Again, these are, we understand now, very smart business moves.

This series of events alienated him from much of the local Dayton area Danzan practitioners, particularly those who Ancho Sensei left "in charge." They saw it as a dirty backstab and a usurpation of authority not rightfully his. In other words, they were pretty pissed.

That aside, his 7th Dan rank was never awarded by either Ancho or "Sig" (the lineage he came from) and is, from all indications, self-appointed when he created his "style" of Yudansha Fighting Association.

While some of his students may or may not be talented, I would, personally, stay far, far away from Mr. Veros.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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K831

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Kirk,

Thanks for following up. Disappointing information, but good to know none-the-less!

7th in 3 years.... impressive! :)
 

lklawson

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I have no idea of when he awarded himself 7th, but I rather doubt it was immediate upon opening his dojo. My understanding is that he opened the dojo, then formed his organization, and that morphed into the Yudansha Fighting Association. Somewhere in that process he, from what I can tell, awarded himself 7th Dan as is "traditional" for people who start their own style. Regardless of where/when he "acquired" a 7th Dan I can say one thing for certain: It was not awarded to him by either Ancho Sensei or by Kufferath Sensei.

But, yeah, opening your own school after 3 (or less) years of training under Ancho Sensei, in direct competition with Ancho's own school and his hand-picked instructors, is kinda ballsy.

Again, people who have actually randoried with him thought that he had some level of talent, at least for his actual training level, for whatever that is worth.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

DGarich

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I just came across this while searching for Mike Veros. If any of you are still on here, you have grossly misrepresented Mike Veros. I haven't talked to him in over twenty years but the information that is on here is incorrect or incomplete at best.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I just came across this while searching for Mike Veros. If any of you are still on here, you have grossly misrepresented Mike Veros. I haven't talked to him in over twenty years but the information that is on here is incorrect or incomplete at best.
What is the correct information regarding him?
 

DGarich

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I just signed up, I noticed it said white belt, I'm not a white belt but I didn't see where you change that. Probably appropriate though given my ideas about rank. I have been studying for over 30 years
 

DGarich

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Well first, if you google ancho one of the first pictures you see is of him leaving wright Patterson in I think around 1987. The person standing to his right (left in the picture) is Mike. I studied with him and Michael and Brian Johnson. Probably brown belts in that picture and Mark, Desmond, and many others. I think the other person iklawson was referring to was most likely the sensei standing on the other side of professor ancho. Mike was an officer in the air force so he moved a lot but he was a great instructor that really opened my eyes. He taught at Wright Patt Air Force base when I met him and he had a school in Beavercreek, Ohio. He may have been a great businessman but as a young high school kid I never paid more than 38 dollars per month and many times nothing while some of the people who were supposedly pissed were charging 150. He taught military mostly but also kids and it was a great atmosphere. I never heard him say one bad thing about another martial artist. I heard most of the story from one of the students of the so called hand picked students of ancho who challenged me when he found out I was a student of Veros.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I just signed up, I noticed it said white belt, I'm not a white belt but I didn't see where you change that. Probably appropriate though given my ideas about rank. I have been studying for over 30 years
The rank has nothing to do with actual rank, it's just a fun way for the site to say how many messages people have posted.
 

DGarich

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As for his skill I would have to say he was at that time a fourth degree black belt in danzan ryu and he was the best I had ever seen. Which maybe wasn't saying much at that time but I had already been studying martial arts for 8 years and he was a very humble and capable teacher that was more interested in helping people learn than rank and praise and fame. At that time he taught many of the military police and local law enforcement as well. He went on to teach military personnel and many others In many states and countries including military personnel from Air Force and Marines and others. He was, at least when I knew him more interested in helping people learn the arts than he was interested in recognition. I remember him even giving me the keys to the dojo when I was around 17 or 18 so I could come in on Sunday and practice. I studied every day for just over a dollar a day
 

DGarich

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The disparaging words I read on here about him from some people. Looked up your videos. He was at least that good when I knew him twenty years ago
 

DGarich

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And by the way at least half of the people in anchos picture I think would agree with me. And also professed ancho was teaching at Wright Patterson Air Force base and when he left Mike Veros was still teaching there so I dispute the claim that there were hand picked replacements. It's easy to say that more than ten years after the man died, but that doesn't make it true.
 

DGarich

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After my first post I had three emails real fast before I could respond. Nothing to add? I'm sure you are frantically looking for Google info but keep in mind they didn't have google in the 80s so keep in mind most of the best martial artists go unnoticed unless their students are media savvy or promoting themselves.
 
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