Your thoughts on these locks?

[marvin8]

Is that something that validates aikido, in your opinion? That you can find a place for an “aikido technique” within MMA?

I’ll be honest about my own opinion: whether or not there is a place for it in MMA means absolutely nothing to me. MMA is not the yardstick against which all martial arts need to be measured. MMA is what it is, other things are what they are, context and purpose can often be very different and there can also be some overlap. None of that means anything one way or the other.

No. The video demonstrates it's difficult to grab a wrist and perform kotegaeshi when an opponent punches, whether in the street or MMA.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Martial Arts Journey
Jan 16, 2019

After training MMA intensively for 3 months I've finally found an Aikido technique which works in MMA and now is used even by my coaches. This Aikido technique is called Aikido Koteageshi and in MMA I use it when my sparring partner throws a one two.

Did you watch the whole video?

This was part of a prank that Rokas pulled to “test people’s critical thinking skills”, i.e. see whether his audience members would accept that a certain technique (kote gaeshi) works just because an MMA coach assured them that it did.

He originally published just the first half of that video, with the kote gaeshi being demonstrated cooperatively and stating that they had been able to make it work in live sparring. Then a little later he published the full version in which he confessed in the second half that it was a trick and that they were not actually able to make it work in real sparring.

I was not particularly impressed with this little “experiment.”

Edit - I see from your follow up that you did watch the whole thing and posted it as evidence against the use of kote gaeshi. Bear in mind that based on the bit you quoted and the beginning of the video, some people are going to misinterpret the message.

 

[Flying Crane]

No. The video demonstrates it's difficult to grab a wrist and perform kotegaeshi when an opponent punches, whether in the street or MMA.

Ok, so what exactly is your position? I don’t want to make any assumptions.

 

[marvin8]

Ok, so what exactly is your position? I don’t want to make any assumptions.

That it's difficult to grab a wrist and perform kotegaeshi when an opponent punches, whether in the street or MMA.

 

[Flying Crane]

That it's difficult to grab a wrist and perform kotegaeshi when an opponent punches, whether in the street or MMA.

Do you have a larger position on aikido, or is this simply a stand-alone observation on one technique?

 

[marvin8]

Do you have a larger position on aikido, or is this simply a stand-alone observation on one technique?

Regarding the OP, it's difficult to grab a wrist and perform joint locking when an opponent moves or punches whether in the street or MMA.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Regarding the OP, it's difficult to grab a wrist and perform joint locking when an opponent moves or punches whether in the street or MMA.

This is true. However, grabbing a punch is not the correct use case for any sort of wrist lock.

(I'm aware that there are martial arts instructors who teach it that way, which just adds to the bad reputation such techniques have.)

 

[marvin8]

This is true. However, grabbing a punch is not the correct use case for any sort of wrist lock.

(I'm aware that there are martial arts instructors who teach it that way, which just adds to the bad reputation such techniques have.)

Not just punching, moving also makes it difficult. Rokas fails to grab Jesse, because Jesse is able to push off his front foot.

 

[drop bear]

The video is kind of interesting if you understand what's actually being shown.

The gentleman on the left understands the techniques well enough that he is able to allow his partner to get most of the way into the wristlocks and make some very subtle micro adjustments which prevent them from working. The person on the right only understands the basic shape of the locks and so doesn't have the sensitivity to feel how to counter the counters. Contrariwise, when the guy on the left applies the techniques, he understands the subtleties of directing the force exactly where it needs to go.

The claim that one method is "mechanical" while the other uses "energy" is misleading. It's all mechanical. But referring to the more precise version as applying "energy" may be an accurate description of how the difference subjectively feels to the practitioner. Sometimes when you learn to make the subtle adjustments necessary to apply or defeat a technique, you just feel it kinesthetically and it takes additional thought and analysis to break down exactly what the mechanical differences are. Not everyone is skilled at or has the inclination for that sort of explicit analysis.

From a teaching standpoint, it's good to be able to analytically break down the mechanical details but it's also good to be able to describe the internal sensation (i.e. "energy") associated with those details, since some students will grasp it better one way than the other.

I can sort of do the same counters that the instructor was demonstrating, but I wouldn't try demoing them against anyone who was really strong or particularly skilled in the locks, because my wrists are both arthritic and have bone spurs, so my margin for error before the pain kicks in is pretty small. I might use the same principles to try escaping the lock if someone tries one on me in sparring, but my wrists just aren't healthy enough to hang out indefinitely in a compromised position while someone cranks on them.

As far as the techniques themselves, I'd say that they're valid but very situational. I could see them used in a bouncing/LEO/CO context as a sort of grappling "sucker punch" against a subject who is non-compliant or who is pre-fight posturing but hasn't started actually swinging yet. However in that case there are a number of macro adjustments (getting offline, disrupting the opponent's base and structure, etc) which are more important than the almost invisible micro adjustments.

In an actual fight or sparring match with any halfway competent opponent who is actively attacking, you are unlikely to complete any of those locks. However sometimes the opportunity presents itself to use the threat of the lock to force a reaction, which you can use to improve your position. I don't know that those opportunities come up often enough to make it worth devoting a lot of time to training the locks from a min/max perspective, but it's an interesting option to explore.

There are some weird instances and shapes where it works. Kotageshi from a grab where someone is pulling a weapon for example. Because they have half given it to you.


And I have been working on it from a failed drop seonagi. But mostly for giggles

 

[drop bear]

Not just punching, moving also makes it difficult. Rokas fails to grab Jesse, because Jesse is able to push off his front foot.

Playing around with kudo. Grabbing the gi for a clinch in striking is a bit easier.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Not just punching, moving also makes it difficult. Rokas fails to grab Jesse, because Jesse is able to push off his front foot.

Yeah, trying to reach out and grab someone's wrist for a wrist lock in sparring isn't quite as unlikely as catching their punch out of the air, but it's still pretty low percentage.

More realistic use cases:

In a bouncing/LEO/CO context it's possible to snatch a wrist lock as a grappling "sucker punch" technique on someone who is confrontational/non-compliant/pre-fight posturing in a manner where they are waving their hands in your face or putting their hands on you in a threatening manner but not yet actively swinging. Wrist lock entries can also work on someone who is paying attention to someone else. There's a video clip that gets posted sometimes showing a cop taking down an apparently mentally disturbed individual who is standing in the middle of the road with a knife. The cop comes up while the knife wielder is looking the other way and grabs the knife hand for kote gaeshi.

In a sparring/fighting context, the opportunity comes up occasionally when the other person grabs you in such a way that they leave their wrist exposed or possibly when you have a dominant clinch position like a Russian 2 on 1. Even then, the odds of finishing the lock are relatively low unless you have a substantial advantage in skill and/or strength. More likely is that you can use the threat of the lock to force a reaction you want. For example, if the opponent has a grip on you that you don't like and you can legitimately threaten an effective wrist lock, then you can incentivize them to let go and withdraw their arm.

You do occasionally see competitors winning matches with standing wrist locks in BJJ tournaments. Since the practitioners are engaging with grabs and no strikes, there are opportunities. You don't see it happen that often, because you have to snap the lock on really quickly to keep the opponent from just letting go and pulling their arm back. This makes it hard to get really good at them, because if you use them at full speed in sparring, then your training partners tend to get injured, but if you don't use them in sparring it's hard to develop reliable application in competition.

On the ground, wrist locks become much more effective because you can keep your opponent pinned in place while you isolate the limb and apply the lock with control.

I'm of the opinion that most of aikido/aikijutsu primarily makes sense in the context of weapon retention. If you were a rural samurai wearing your swords at your waist while collecting taxes from some resentful peasants who might decide to ambush you in a group and dogpile you before you could draw your weapon, then the whole system makes sense. Evasive footwork to avoid being clinched and dragged down. All the techniques where someone grabs your wrist and then holds on for dear life while you take them off balance and eventually throw them? That could be justified if they were desperately trying to keep you from being able to draw your sword and cut them down.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

make some very subtle micro adjustments which prevent them from working.

It takes very little effort to interrupt a force while the force is still in the initial stage. In jacket wrestling, when your opponent tries to throw you, you can always just "shake" him" to destroy his initial momentum. This way, none of his throws will work on you.

 

[Flying Crane]

Regarding the OP, it's difficult to grab a wrist and perform joint locking when an opponent moves or punches whether in the street or MMA.

This does not answer my question, but ok.

Many techniques are difficult to apply in real combat. That is the nature of combat. That is why we practice. If it was easy, we wouldn’t need to practice and everyone would be a master.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The video is kind of interesting if you understand what's actually being shown.

The gentleman on the left understands the techniques well enough that he is able to allow his partner to get most of the way into the wristlocks and make some very subtle micro adjustments which prevent them from working. The person on the right only understands the basic shape of the locks and so doesn't have the sensitivity to feel how to counter the counters. Contrariwise, when the guy on the left applies the techniques, he understands the subtleties of directing the force exactly where it needs to go.

The claim that one method is "mechanical" while the other uses "energy" is misleading. It's all mechanical. But referring to the more precise version as applying "energy" may be an accurate description of how the difference subjectively feels to the practitioner. Sometimes when you learn to make the subtle adjustments necessary to apply or defeat a technique, you just feel it kinesthetically and it takes additional thought and analysis to break down exactly what the mechanical differences are. Not everyone is skilled at or has the inclination for that sort of explicit analysis.

From a teaching standpoint, it's good to be able to analytically break down the mechanical details but it's also good to be able to describe the internal sensation (i.e. "energy") associated with those details, since some students will grasp it better one way than the other.

I can sort of do the same counters that the instructor was demonstrating, but I wouldn't try demoing them against anyone who was really strong or particularly skilled in the locks, because my wrists are both arthritic and have bone spurs, so my margin for error before the pain kicks in is pretty small. I might use the same principles to try escaping the lock if someone tries one on me in sparring, but my wrists just aren't healthy enough to hang out indefinitely in a compromised position while someone cranks on them.

As far as the techniques themselves, I'd say that they're valid but very situational. I could see them used in a bouncing/LEO/CO context as a sort of grappling "sucker punch" against a subject who is non-compliant or who is pre-fight posturing but hasn't started actually swinging yet. However in that case there are a number of macro adjustments (getting offline, disrupting the opponent's base and structure, etc) which are more important than the almost invisible micro adjustments.

In an actual fight or sparring match with any halfway competent opponent who is actively attacking, you are unlikely to complete any of those locks. However sometimes the opportunity presents itself to use the threat of the lock to force a reaction, which you can use to improve your position. I don't know that those opportunities come up often enough to make it worth devoting a lot of time to training the locks from a min/max perspective, but it's an interesting option to explore.

That’s a pretty good breakdown of both the video and those locks. I may have been too harsh in judging from the words that were used, but it didn’t look to me like he was teaching the subtle principles, though that could just be the fault of the shortish video.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No. The video demonstrates it's difficult to grab a wrist and perform kotegaeshi when an opponent punches, whether in the street or MMA.

It only really demonstrates that he’s attempting to use it when it isn’t available. I see this often within NGA, as well, when folks try to “spar” with it, and are really just trying to force the techniques to work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is true. However, grabbing a punch is not the correct use case for any sort of wrist lock.

(I'm aware that there are martial arts instructors who teach it that way, which just adds to the bad reputation such techniques have.)

Agreed. It’s often taught as an application of that throw in NGA, too. I taught that it can happen, but that it’s not the point of the exercise for me. The point is developing timing on a moving partner, and learning how to start breaking structure on first touch - for instance, if you have a chance to block, or a punch gets overextended (which is easier to find).

 

[Flying Crane]

Not just punching, moving also makes it difficult. Rokas fails to grab Jesse, because Jesse is able to push off his front foot.

Maybe Rokas isn’t the shining example of aikido competence that some people seem to believe he is?

Honestly, I had never heard of him until his name came up here in the forums relatively recently (last year or maybe two?). I still fail to understand why anyone would look to him as any kind of authority on aikido. Or anything, really. Lots of incompetent folks put their crap on the internet for the world to gawk at.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Many techniques are difficult to apply in real combat. That is the nature of combat. That is why we practice. If it was easy, we wouldn’t need to practice and everyone would be a master.

This is why we should train those techniques that's easy to apply in combat. Life is too short trying to be good on everything.

The joint locking is a funny category. You can spend 4 hours and learn 40 different joint locking techniques. It will make you to feel good about yourself. You will then find out that the chance that you can make your "foot sweep" to work can be much higher than the chance that you can make your "wrist lock" to work.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In an actual fight or sparring match with any halfway competent opponent who is actively attacking, you are unlikely to complete any of those locks

For Chin na the opportunities come up more than one would think. The last time I sparred I was was woron wrist control from the context of someone trying to control my wrist. For the 1 technique I was able to pull it off 100% of the time. The result was the same It opened his center big time. It required that he tried to control both arms. Arma.

The chin wrist escapes worked enough to where he switched from wrist control to elbow control then I was pretty much screwed at that point having to defend undertook and overlooks.

I have to read this question as your statement that aikido is not functional in fighting. Is that what you believe?

Not everyone practices Aikido as a fighting system. Hence the are unable to use it as such.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For Chin na the opportunities come up more than one would think.

If you consider "head lock" as joint lock, it has high successful rate. All you will need is to separate your opponent's arms away from his head.