Your MA world-view: how much did you inherit? How much did you work out for yourself?

[exile]

I'm curious about the extent to which people on MT have taken over their overall worldview of martial arts from their instructors, as opposed to working out for themselves based on knowledge and experience that they've gradually built up over time. As students, we generally tend to adopt the position of our teachers—what else can we do at that point? After all, they know the subject and we don't (and it doesn't matter whether it's physics, philosophy or kata applications here). As time goes on, we start developing an independent perspective, based on the way we individually synthesize information from different sources and work out a coherent view of theory and practice in the domain in question. But I suspect that there are very great differences between individuals in the degree to which, and the directions in which, people have rethought their `core' MA, and maybe the MAs in general, from a historical, or technical, or social perspective, or any other, or any combination of these. My guess is, some people have basically adopted the viewpoint that they've been exposed to over many years with the same instructor(s), while others have kind of rethought the whole thing from the ground up...and any number of possibilities in between these two poles.

So which are you—and, to the extent that you've departed from the overall conception of the MAs that you were originally exposed to, what factors have most influenced the ways in which you arrived at this individual, personally constructed understanding of the M(s) you practice?

 

[Guardian]

A good question here to see where people are coming from and to see how much influence their teachers/instructors had over them in their lifes.

For myself personally, everyone I came in contact with during my training, daily experiences gave me a look at different walks/aspects of life. I would say my first instructor played an important part of showing me the arts could be fun and serious at the same time, she also taught me that life could be fun also, not to take myself so serious. Her outlook on life was grand.

I did veer away from my original art but not because I found my true calling or anything of the sort, I just chose a different path to follow and it led me away from my original being the only one and over the next 20 years while keep the core of it, I added alot more to it and I must admit it's been one dang good ride so far (overall that is).

 

[tshadowchaser]

My instructor was good at passing along so much knowledge to me. I have used that knowledge and the system he taught me for 30+ years. I have added to what he taught me as I traveled and learned from others. Knowledge is always welcome and no one system has all the answers so I keep learning.

 

[Steel Tiger]

One of the advantages to being at a school on a university campus is that you are exposed to a variety of backgrounds and philosophies. My teacher gave me the basic, and somewhat more than basic, understanding of the Taoist world view. But in our class we had people from all over the place and we discussed different perspectives. I went away from those classes with a better understanding of Christianity, Islam, Hindu, and even Shinto perspectives.

From that basis I have developed my own perspective. It is largely based in Taoist concepts but I think it is broad enough that my mind is not closed to other ideas.

 

[Bigshadow]

I think as one learns, they should begin to distill the knowledge and skill from the politics, personal agendas, and personal viewpoints of their instructor while their own independent views, begin to build on their own. Certainly the instructor would have his/her influence.

 

[terryl965]

My instructor was good at passing along so much knowledge to me. I have used that knowledge and the system he taught me for 30+ years. I have added to what he taught me as I traveled and learned from others. Knowledge is always welcome and no one system has all the answers so I keep learning.

I would have to agree with tshadowchaser here.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have learned a lot from my instructors but as to my overall worldview of martial that has come from my own training and research.

I have had very little discussion with my various teachers about styles other than those they have taught me. But my views of Taiji pretty much agree with my Sifu but not 100% and my views of Sanda pretty much agree with my Sanda Sifu but still not 100% and my views of Xingyi only kinda sorta agree with my most recent Xingyi Sifu, he was skilled at Xingyi but our views of it did not always agree. He is also the only Sifu I have had any real discussion with as it is concerned with martial arts and again we did not always agree. Particularly about taiji

 

[theletch1]

My first instructor and I disagreed so badly on what it meant to simply be human that I left his school before really getting to know what his view of the martial arts was...beyond a way to get women.

My aikido instructor and I have had many a long discussion about what the art is, where it's been and where it's going. We have a lot of common ground. I'd say probably 90% there. I've been influenced by all of the arts that I've studied and the theory behind them. The things that I've done in my life, situations in which I've found myself and discussions here on MT have all had their effect on my world view. I almost feel that your world view of the arts is more dependent on your world view of the world than on the philosophy of the arts.

 

[MBuzzy]

This ones's easy - my first instructor was Korean and I couldn't get a good idea of most things just because of the language barrier, although I would LOVE to get fluent and go pick his brain again and I'm sure he has a WEALTH of historical knowledge. I am able to get a lot more information from my current instructor, but a great deal of what I know has come from my own research and from this website!

 

[tradrockrat]

Interesting question.

I believe that my world view is primarily constructed by my life experiences, but having said that, two very important filters have always colored my perceptions.

My mother showed me how to think for myself and act on my own beliefs at a very young age. My MA instructor taught me that Bando at it's core was all the things that a group of men tested and found practical. In short - if it worked it was kept and if it didn't it was gone. Also, the "Asian" philosophical concepts inherent in so very many MA's have always appealed to me, so the philosophies taught in Bando resonated with my personal beliefs.

Today, much of how I feel and act can be traced to these "inherited" world views. I have of course grown and changed much since I left home at 18 years old to live out in the world, but I still believe that we must always seek to find what works for us personally in every aspect of our lives and that we need to act on these findings.

Another thing while we're on it - and not to hijack the thread - but Books have a significant role in my belief system - I bet "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" has a far more profound impact on how I think and live than almost anything else in my life.

I wonder how many people on this site have significantly altered their world view by reading a book. And I wonder if it was a book on Martial Arts...???

 

[Rich Parsons]

I'm curious about the extent to which people on MT have taken over their overall worldview of martial arts from their instructors, as opposed to working out for themselves based on knowledge and experience that they've gradually built up over time. As students, we generally tend to adopt the position of our teachers—what else can we do at that point? After all, they know the subject and we don't (and it doesn't matter whether it's physics, philosophy or kata applications here). As time goes on, we start developing an independent perspective, based on the way we individually synthesize information from different sources and work out a coherent view of theory and practice in the domain in question. But I suspect that there are very great differences between individuals in the degree to which, and the directions in which, people have rethought their `core' MA, and maybe the MAs in general, from a historical, or technical, or social perspective, or any other, or any combination of these. My guess is, some people have basically adopted the viewpoint that they've been exposed to over many years with the same instructor(s), while others have kind of rethought the whole thing from the ground up...and any number of possibilities in between these two poles.

So which are you—and, to the extent that you've departed from the overall conception of the MAs that you were originally exposed to, what factors have most influenced the ways in which you arrived at this individual, personally constructed understanding of the M(s) you practice?

Being Young and Stupid, I had some experience in being hit and hitting back. I knew which side I preferred to be on and which side I wanted to limit my exposure to. In my first class I was taught some basic blocks with a stick, and other techniques. The next class the instructor was going over them and he went down the line tellig each student strike he was going to do and then asked them if they knew which block to do, and where they ready to do it. He got to me at the end of the line and told me he was going to thrust me to the mid section and did I know the block. I replied yes. He then struck at me knee, and at that time I stepped back and did the proper block for a knee shot. The other students chimed in and said I did not do the right block for the called shot. The instructor asked them if I got hit? They replied no. His response was, I guess he did the right block then, even when he did not know which attack was coming.

The point is I staid because I liked his attitude and teaching style. So it is real hard not to pick up things from an instructor one decides to stay with. In cases of college and such where one cannot choose the insturctor this dynamic is short term and can be endurred.

Now, I am intelligent enough to realize this, but also open minded enough to realize that I can be differnet from my instructor and still learn from him.

 

[thardey]

My world view of combat and MA mostly came from my Dad and Grandfather.

My Grandfather was a Motorcycle cop in Texas, and he passed the "Sheepdog" mentality on to my Dad, and both of them passed it on to me.

Both of them taught me, as a kid, the same ideas that I hold as an adult, and what I see reflected in the legal system. Basically they told me, "Don't get into fights, don't start them, and don't tease people. But, if a fight comes your way, finish it, call me, and I'll come pick you up from school."

My Grandfather's the one who taught me to cheat in a fight, although those lessons didn't sink in until later. He advocated the use of rocks, large ones.

 

[Bob Klein]

My first training was in Zen meditation, Esalen Mind/Body training and Zookinesis (a form of Chi-Gung). Several years after this training I began studying from Tai-chi Grandmaster William C. C. Chen. I had no intention of learning the martial arts aspect of Tai-chi but that was what Master Chen emphasized and so I got drawn into it. He taught me to enjoy sparring and see it as a natural part of all other aspects of Tai-chi.
I continued studying other types of healing such as massage at the same time as I studied Tai-chi and gradually all these types of trainings merged into the way I spar.
The main influence was Zookinesis or "Animal Exercises". This training traditionally required working extensively with animals in the wild and copying their patterns of movement, attention and internal energy. A student would spend each year studying a particular species until he had six to eight species down pat.
I had an animal importing company for many years and travelled to jungle areas to study animals as a zoologist so I was familiar with an enormous range of species. I have to say that the animals taught me more about the martial arts than any human teacher, especially becuase I had to constantly defend myself against them.
I merged all the experiences of these animals and my other training into what I call "Phantom Kung-fu". My philosophy in teaching has always been "no rules". Let's see what you can come up with and then we will figure out, based on basic principles, how to deal with it.
There has always been a feeling of freedom in the class and when we get hit by the sparring partner, we usually laugh because we didn't see it coming. There is no anger because the freedom makes the sparring fun.
As far as what I put into my sparring practice as opposed to what I learned I feel that 1. Everything is based on what I learn and 2. There is complete freedom of innovation because we don't stick to pre-set patterns of movement.
In Tai-chi-Chuan training, every moment must be spontaneous. You are inventing techniques in the moment. The Zookinesis training allows you to "expand time" so that one second seems like a long time. This training concentrates on the relationship between the mind and body to strengthen and expand your attention. In this way there is plenty of time within each second to be creative. So we are always being creative because that's what Tai-chi-Chuan requires. It is not a fixed set of techniques. Tai-chi-Chuan emphasizes developing your awareness so you know inticately what the sparring partner is doing, developing your creativity so that you can adapt to his techniques, second by second and developing your attention so that you have a lot of "time room" in which to move and adjust.

 

[exile]

I've been looking over the responses to my original query and I have to say that I was very happy to find the basic theme of virtually all of the responses so much in line with my own perspective. I tend to try to stay out of my own threads for a bit, not wanting to skew the discussion with my own slant on things, and especially so in something like this, where what's at issue is, really, the MAist's basic point of view relative to his/her instructor.

The one line that seems to summarize what everyone is saying, in one way or another, was theletch's: I almost feel that your world view of the arts is more dependent on your world view of the world than on the philosophy of the arts. I think this statement touches on something very deep about the way we do MAs: they ultimately become an extension of our own unique, very individual take on the world at large, worked out over decades of experience, of trial and error, and of our own hard-won understanding of the Big Picture. In terms of my OP question, what this means is that the MA perspective of mature adults is only going to line up very closely with that of their respective instructors if the overall world-view of the first group of people lines up pretty much in parallel with that of the second group, respectively. And that isn't a very common thing, I've found.

I have to say, I think it's much healthier for someone to forumulate a view of some domain based on detailed knowledge of that domain under the shaping influence of an overall view what is important, what it takes for something to make sense, etc., than for that person to adopt an attitude toward something holus-bolus because they believe that issues of loyalty require them to mimic their instructors' mental picture of that domain unquestioningly. So I was pretty happy with what people had to say in their responses....

 

[Jai]

Wow I'm shocked I missed this one lol. I'll try and give my 2 cents here as well. Having spent alot of time with many different instructors I will sum up the three major ones I have had in my life.

My very first instructor was like a father to me. I learned more from him then how to kick and punch. I learned ethics and values, good morals, and a sense of self worth. He was an amazing man on and off the MA floor. To this day I still think of him fondly and carry what he taught me to heart and try my hardest to pass it along.

My second instructor taught me everything I never wanted to be in life. Cheep, greedy, self centered, looking out only for yourself. This lead not only to many conflicts, but also to my leaving.

My last instructor taught me more then anything, that life is not always to be taken so seriously. He is younger, actually younger then me, but full of life and loves what he does. He knows it's a business but does not run it like a 9 to 5 Monday through Friday work week. I still haven't gotten up the heart to tell him yet that I will not be returning. Nothing so much against him, but I hate the aspect of MA as just another "sport" with jump flip spin 900 degree back kicks and all that XMA crap, which sadly, is what he was taught, so in turn, it is what he teaches.

So if I had to pick just one. I would have to say Sensei Burt was the biggest impact on how I live my life, how I gained my sense of values and morals, and how I try and be a good example to my own kids, and to those whos lives I touch, be it on a day ot day basis, or someone just passing through.

 

[Christina05]

I think as one learns, they should begin to distill the knowledge and skill from the politics, personal agendas, and personal viewpoints of their instructor while their own independent views, begin to build on their own. Certainly the instructor would have his/her influence.

Thats a very good way of looking at the situation

 

[Mark Lynn]

My first instructor had the most impact on my life in relation to things outside of the martial arts. He showed me and others what it meant to be a good human being while being in the martial arts. To some he was a much needed father figure that in time became an old and trusted friend. For others he was the friend, for me he was and is the instructor. It was him who stressed the need to help and respect others in the martial arts and to have high standards. Both of which I stress today for my students.

My second main instructor taught me to really think outside of the box and to shed the trappings of traditionalism in regards to self defense and the martial arts. He taught me to really analize what I teach and how I teach and how to interact with others when teaching self defense etc. etc. More of a serious wake up call in reagards to the business aspect of the martial arts.

My first instructor's guidence on the mechanics and the how to of the martial arts, coupled with a strong work and training ethic, and the example and teaching of how to treat people. Ended up being blended with a wide exposure of sound self defense related tactics, theroy, and techniques and the exposure to someone who is a great inovator and business person and such. Combining them gave me my present worldview.

My indepent research of different styles (history and such) and instructors lead to my world view of the martial arts. But how I view things I and how I teach I think really came from these two men, although I might teach other arts.

Mark

 

[kidswarrior]

....what's at issue is, really, the MAist's basic point of view relative to his/her instructor.

The one line that seems to summarize what everyone is saying, in one way or another, was theletch's: I almost feel that your world view of the arts is more dependent on your world view of the world than on the philosophy of the arts. I think this statement touches on something very deep about the way we do MAs: they ultimately become an extension of our own unique, very individual take on the world at large, worked out over decades of experience, of trial and other, and of our own hard-won understanding of the Big Picture.

This is how I see it too. Starting MA's in middle age meant my world view had been long established. The martial influence which converged in my experience to form this view were a two-fisted 'cowboy' extended family; my living out the unspoken expectation the family had for all boys/men, namely never to back away from a fight that came your way (although to their credit, they didn't seem to advocate starting things--I know I never started a fight in my life); and service in the Vietnam era military, when due to the draft, life for young servicemen was slightly cheap.

Starting MA's, I'd already done all my real world fighting (a few dozen, I think--counting is difficult because much of it was in an alcoholic fog ), while many of my MA teachers admitted they'd never been in a real fight. In addition along the way, the world had changed from the way it was in my youth, to our alternately litigious/vicious milieu today. When I was coming up, someone might lose a tooth in the fight, or break a bone, but nobody even thought of suing anyone, no one's friends jumped in to make it 2, 3, 4 or more on one, and no one went home to get a gun for revenge. Often, the combatants earned each other's mutual respect, if not a downright friendship after tempers cooled.

So, I've strained all I've been taught by three key instructors through two filters: would it really work, and, would it likely get someone using it sued. The system I now use seems to meet those criteria. At least, so far so good.