Yep, here it comes - gun control lies front and center

[Bill Mattocks]

I figured this would be oozing out of the woodwork following the Trayvon Martin shooting. Once again, it's the evil gun to blame. And if it's not the gun itself, it's the fact that if you pick up a gun, it forces you to become a cold-blooded killer, seeking someone to use it on. It's impossible for you to own a gun and not want to kill someone with it. Ask any gun-grabber.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justic...n-gun-rights-debate?google_editors_picks=true

Trayvon Martin shooting: a turning point in gun rights debate?

For years, gun laws had grown less restrictive. But some gun rights advocacy has been curtailed after the Trayvon Martin shooting, which has provided ammunition for gun control groups.
...
“At some point, the progressives have got to stand their ground against the NRA,” says Philip Cook, a sociologist who studies gun policy and crime at Duke University, in Durham, N.C. “I think otherwise the NRA will continue to push for a broader interpretation of their understanding of what the Second Amendment right is, to the point where everybody pretty much can carry a gun, concealed or openly, all the time in any circumstance, and do with it what they want.”

This is the usual anti-gun BS. As the gun laws in the US have become more reflective of the intent of the Founders, gun violence has dropped. Crime is down by huge amounts as well. No one can claim this is entirely due to more citizens being armed, but it also cannot be claimed that the predicted bloodbaths happened either. As more citizens have armed themselves, they have not become bloodthirsty savages, shooting first and asking questions later.

The statement above is reflective of the lies perpetuated by the anti-gun people, however. "...and do with it what they want." LIES! Since when has that been true? Since when?

Gun control advocacy groups say the Trayvon shooting has given a lot of Americans pause about the expansion of concealed-carry rights – as many as 10 million Americans now have concealed carry permits, compared to a few hundred thousand a decade ago – and about the growing numbers of places where Americans can carry guns, including, in some states, restaurants, statehouses, even city parks.

Ten million Americans legally armed with concealed carry licenses. Where is the carnage? Where is the massive disregard for human life? Oh, they're not committing any crimes? Well, they are BAD PEOPLE anyway and they must be stopped! It's important that they be unarmed victims of whatever criminal happens to want to prey upon them, don't you get that?

“The fact is that the exact scenarios that [gun rights] advocacy groups said would never happen do happen – that concealed carry handgun holders do kill and not just in self-defense situations, but in road rage, domestic shootings, arguments, and bar fights.”

REALLY? HOW MANY? HOW MANY? OUT OF 10 MILLION, WHAT ARE THE NUMBERS?

I hate lies. I really hate lies about guns by anti-gun people.

 

[RobinTKD]

Well coming from a country where guns are illegal, I've never seen an argument that convinced me that they should be legalised.

Seems like an outdated self indulgence to me.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well coming from a country where guns are illegal, I've never seen an argument that convinced me that they should be legalised.

Do criminals have guns in your country? They do here.

Seems like an outdated self indulgence to me.

Like Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure....heck, that whole freedom thing is completely overrated.

 

[d1jinx]

Well coming from a country where guns are illegal, I've never seen an argument that convinced me that they should be legalised.

Seems like an outdated self indulgence to me.

you cant appreciate what you never had. you never grew up shooting or hunting. you never participating in a shooting contest. you never had a rifle or handgun past down to you from your father/grandfather etc. you never had any of these things but then again you are not an american. It was written into our constitution that our country is based on and it was the SECOND MOST IMPORTANT thing they wrote.

you cant understand that because you are not from here so its easy for you to assume its a "self indulgence".

 

[d1jinx]

I figured this would be oozing out of the woodwork following the Trayvon Martin shooting. Once again, it's the evil gun to blame. And if it's not the gun itself, it's the fact that if you pick up a gun, it forces you to become a cold-blooded killer, seeking someone to use it on. It's impossible for you to own a gun and not want to kill someone with it. Ask any gun-grabber.
...I hate lies. I really hate lies about guns by anti-gun people.

Like anything, the "I want to tell you how to live your life and cry about something I think is right" will lay in the bushes waiting for another chance to stand up and say how right they are.

I can just as easily say Look how many automobiles killed inocent people and we need to ban all privately owned vehicles because they are dangerous.

look for anything and you can find an excuse to BAN it.

 

[Sukerkin]

Where is it you're from, Robin? It'll help contextualise your stance.

 

[elder999]

Where is it you're from, Robin? It'll help contextualise your stance.

Maybe. This is a stance that could be contextualized:

Well coming from a country [.where guns are illegal, I've never seen an argument that convinced me that they should be legalised.

There is no context for this though, since guns aren't any of those things, here in the U.S:

Seems like an outdated self indulgence to me.

It's simply uninformed and judgemental.

 

[jks9199]

Well coming from a country where guns are illegal, I've never seen an argument that convinced me that they should be legalised.

Seems like an outdated self indulgence to me.

You're coming from one cultural background; we're in a very different one. As much diversity as there is within the UK -- it is still a largely homogenous culture. The USA is probably at least 8 regional cultures alone (North East, Mid Atlantic, "Northern" Southern, Deep South, Southwest, Central/Heartland, Northwest, California). That's without getting into things like racial/ethnic breakdowns... Guns have been a part of US culture since the Colonial Era. They were vital tools for survival, as well as protection. Trying to control and take them away was one of the Intolerable Acts; it made the colonists controlled Subjects

But even simpler than any cultural issue is practicality. We've got guns. In some places (NYC, Chicago), the only people with guns are the law breakers. Guess what? All the gun control laws in the world won't make their guns go away. There's a whole lot of truth in the old saw that "if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns." Cops do their best -- but we don't have a police state. Cops can't be everywhere, and we respect the right of the individual to secure their own safety, within reasonable bounds of law.

 

[Wo Fat]

Nothing wrong with owning a gun(s). And there's nothing wrong with using one to protect yourself in a real, mortally combative situation that you did not cause.

The problem isn't necessarily the gun itself. The problem is the paranoia-induced proliferation and flooding the country with them. From straw purchases, to sales to unstable individuals, to street purchases, to easy criminal access.

 

[Steve]

What are the numbers where a gun has actually helped? I don't know. I remember when Congresswoman Giffords was shot in AZ, one of the guys who subdued the shooter had a CCW permit. He didn't draw his gun and shoot into the crowd, and at the time I thought that it was good press for gun owners. But in the context of this discussion, his gun was really a non-issue. I mean, it didn't in any way help him or anyone else. That he was armed was irrelevant to subduing the bad guy.

So, how often does a personal firearm help?

And before I get jumped, I'm not saying ban guns. I am reacting strictly to Bill's argument that guns have a negative influence on situations in very few actual instances. I'm simply asking whether the opposite is true. Are guns ever or often a positive influence?

I'm also genuinely asking the question. It's not intended to be rhetorical or imply that they never help. Simply put, are there statistics? If so, I've never seen them.

Oh, and I'm also talking about on the street situations, not home invasion. Those are, in my mind, cmopletely different animals.

 

[elder999]

What are the numbers where a gun has actually helped? .

Lots, Steve...just, lots.

 

[shesulsa]

What are the numbers where a gun has actually helped? I don't know. I remember when Congresswoman Giffords was shot in AZ, one of the guys who subdued the shooter had a CCW permit. He didn't draw his gun and shoot into the crowd, and at the time I thought that it was good press for gun owners. But in the context of this discussion, his gun was really a non-issue. I mean, it didn't in any way help him or anyone else. That he was armed was irrelevant to subduing the bad guy.

So, how often does a personal firearm help?

How often I'm not sure but they do. You could ask Paul Janulis (hard to find these days) about his encounter on the street. He is a VERY muscular individual (at least he was an intimidating figure at the time judging from his photos) and was the recipient of an attempted assault. The situation reached a point where he reached for his handgun (this particular instance he carried it on the right side of his low back (hip/rear waistband). *when he reached for the firearm, the attackers turned and ran*

I'm in a bit of a hurry ATM, so I'll have to find the link later if you'd like. It's a good example of a thwarted attack because of the availability of a firearm.

 

[mastercole]

Interesting comments from interesting people on this subject.

"One man with a gun can control 100 without one." ~ Vladimir Lenin

"Every good communist should know that political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." ~ Mao Tse-Tung

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

"There are hundreds of millions of gun owners in this country, and not one of them will have an accident today. The only misuse of guns comes in environments where there are drugs, alcohol, bad parents, and undisciplined children. Period."
- Ted Nugent

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
- Sigmund Freud

"An armed society is a polite society."
- Robert Heinlein

"But if someone has a gun and is trying to kill you ... it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun."
- Dalai Lama

" ... the right to defend one's home and one's person when attacked has been guaranteed through the ages by common law."
- Martin Luther King

"Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again; poor fools. And their grand-children are once more slaves."
- D. H. Lawrence

 

[Steve]

Lots, Steve...just, lots.

Page not found, but I can infer that the information is out there.

Mastercole, I'd think that including quotes from guys like Lenin, Big Mao and even Ted Nugent don't do a lot to support the cause.

Regarding Gandhi and MLK Jr, they're both on record several times as distinguishing clearly between cowardice and non-violence, and a person incapable of defending himself or his family is very different than a person unwilling to do so. And I agree very much with that.

As for Freud, everything was a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well coming from a country where guns are illegal, I've never seen an argument that convinced me that they should be legalised.

Seems like an outdated self indulgence to me.

In England they took firearms away. So people started using longer blades. Then swords were taken away. Then Machete's and farm implements/tools. Then people started using kitchen knives. They too are illegal or let us say controlled. Chef's must be aware of where they are at all times and are responsible for them.

So How many Chef's have gone on killing spree's with their blades? I have heard of none, but not being local I will grant I am not connected with the local news.

 

[RobinTKD]

Bill, we also have "Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure", we also have the freedom to walk our streets without the fear of being shot, which I would say is a much nicer freedom to have. And yes some of our criminals have guns, but mostly they carry knives, knives that are easier to conceal, that don't make a loud bang when used against someone, and are easier for people to obtain. Isn't this why we train in self defence?

Culture isn't an argument for guns, Christ it shouldn't be used as an argument for anything. Ever.

Yes I'm from the UK as some of you already guessed, even our police don't carry firearms, and *gasp* many of them do their job without being attacked with weapons!

 

[billc]

Bank of America is making a political statement by dropping a firearms company...

http://pjmedia.com/blog/breaking-bank-of-america-reportedly-drops-gun-company-for-political-reasons/

Bailout recipient Bank of America has severed relations with an American company because of a reported bias against their industry. McMillan Group International released an extraordinary statement on Facebook regarding the incident:

McMillan Fiberglass Stocks, McMillan Firearms Manufacturing, McMillan Group International have been collectively banking with Bank of America for 12 years. Today Mr. Ray Fox, Senior Vice President, Market Manager, Business Banking, Global Commercial Banking came to my office. He scheduled the meeting as an “account analysis” meeting in order to evaluate the two lines of credit we have with them. He spent five minutes talking about how McMillan has changed in the last five years and have become more of a firearms manufacturer than a supplier of accessories.
At this point I interrupted him and asked “Can I possible save you some time so that you don’t waste your breath? What you are going to tell me is that because we are in the firearms manufacturing business you no longer what my business.”

ADVERTISEMENT​

I replied “That is okay, we will move our accounts as soon as possible. We can find a Second Amendment friendly bank that will be glad to have our business. You won’t mind if I tell the NRA, SCI and everyone one I know that BofA is not firearms industry friendly?”
“You have to do what you must” he said.
“So you are telling me this is a politically motivated decision, is that right?”
Mr Fox confirmed that it was. At which point I told him that the meeting was over and there was nothing let for him to say.
​

McMillan is now refusing to accept Bank of America cards from customers for payment.
McMillan is heavily involved with U.S. national security. McMillan rifle stocks are the standard for the Marine Corps’ favored M40A3 sniper rifle. McMillan products, from stocks and other accessories to complete rifles, are used by U.S. regular and special forces and by American military allies around the globe.
McMillan products are of particular import in Afghanistan and in Iraq, where snipers and designated marksmen armed with long-range precision rifles performed (and still perform) vital scouting and overwatch functions protecting maneuver units. The extended range of these weapons allows forces to engage with and destroy enemy forces before they are in range to accurately fire against American soldiers and Marines.

 

[billc]

As to gun crimes in the U.K., the author is John Stossel...

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3083618&page=1#.T5HJJnhqOFI

After the 1997 shooting of 16 kids in Dunblane, England, the United Kingdom passed one of the strictest gun-control laws in the world, banning its citizens from owning almost all types of handguns. Britain seemed to get safer by the minute, as 162,000 newly-illegal firearms were forked over to British officials by law-abiding citizens.
But this didn't decrease the amount of gun-related crime in the U.K. In fact, gun-related crime has nearly doubled in the U.K. since the ban was enacted.
Might stricter gun laws result in more gun crime? It seems counterintuitive but makes sense if we consider one simple fact: Criminals don't obey the law. Strict gun laws, like the ban in Britain, probably only affect the actions of people who wouldn't commit crimes in the first place.
England's ban didn't magically cause all British handguns to disappear. Officials estimate that more than 250,000 illegal weapons are still in circulation in the country. Without the fear of retaliation from victims who might be packing heat, criminals in possession of these weapons now have a much easier job, and the incidence of gun-related crime has risen. As the saying goes, "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

The following source is not unbiased but the claims should be easy to verify...

http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm

* England: According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997.4

And from the BBC on gun crimes...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2656875.stm

Government assured Britons they needed no weapons, society would protect them. If that were so in 1920 when the first firearms restrictions were passed, or in 1953 when Britons were forbidden to carry any article for their protection, it no longer is.
The failure of this general disarmament to stem, or even slow, armed and violent crime could not be more blatant. According to a recent UN study, England and Wales have the highest crime rate and worst record for "very serious" offences of the 18 industrial countries surveyed.
But would allowing law-abiding people to "have arms for their defence", as the 1689 English Bill of Rights promised, increase violence? Would Britain be following America's bad example?

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It is true that in contrast to Britain's tight gun restrictions, half of American households have firearms, and 33 states now permit law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons.
But despite, or because, of this, violent crime in America has been plummeting for 10 consecutive years, even as British violence has been rising. By 1995 English rates of violent crime were already far higher than America's for every major violent crime except murder and rape.
You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. Why? Because as common law appreciated, not only does an armed individual have the ability to protect himself or herself but criminals are less likely to attack them. They help keep the peace. A study found American burglars fear armed home-owners more than the police. As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England.
Much is made of the higher American rate for murder. That is true and has been for some time. But as the Office of Health Economics in London found, not weapons availability, but "particular cultural factors" are to blame.A study comparing New York and London over 200 years found the New York homicide rate consistently five times the London rate, although for most of that period residents of both cities had unrestricted access to firearms.
When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest for 100 years the two are on a path to converge.

More from the U.K. and the BBC...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.
It also said there was no link between high levels of gun crime and areas where there were still high levels of lawful gun possession.
Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime.
And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average.
Smuggling
The campaign's director, David Bredin, said: "It is crystal clear from the research that the existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place.

 

[RobinTKD]

As to gun crimes in the U.K., the author is John Stossel...

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3083618&page=1#.T5HJJnhqOFI



The following source is not unbiased but the claims should be easy to verify...

http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm



And from the BBC on gun crimes...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2656875.stm

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More from the U.K. and the BBC...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

How would introducing guns to the general public stop any of those crimes from happening? They'd only add to it.

 

[elder999]

Understand, I'm not advocating that the UK arm everyone, or allow everyone to be armed, or have guns at all-how you conduct yourselves in your country is your business,just as how we do things here in our country is our business.

However

How would introducing guns to the general public stop any of those crimes from happening? They'd only add to it.

Experience here demonstrates otherwise:

Sitting at his kitchen table, a long-time NRA member and competitive shooter was alarmed when a masked intruder walked through the front door wielding a knife. “Who the [expletive] are you?” the NRA member demanded, but the intruder just mumbled something and progressed toward him. The NRA member grabbed for the intruder’s knife hand, receiving lacerations. He continued struggling with the intruder with his left hand, and reached into his pocket with his right, drawing a .38-cal. revolver. “Get the [expletive] out of here or I’m going to shoot you!” the NRA member shouted. The intruder backed away, saying, “I’m an alcoholic; I’m not going to get shot over this.” He fled the scene. (Walla Walla Union-Bulletin, Walla Walla, WA, 03/30/11)

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When a noise woke an 84-year-old grandmother, she noticed her hall light was on and knew something was awry. The sharp-thinking, independent woman opened a nightstand drawer and quickly grabbed her .38-cal. revolver. “My mind told me to get that gun,” she explained. No sooner had she done so than an intruder appeared at the bedroom door. The woman fired a shot, striking the wall. The intruder ran out the back door, which he had kicked in. (KTVU-TV, Oakland, CA, 03/03/11)​

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Denard Joe was stopped in his car at an intersection when a man wearing a red bandana tapped on the window and pointed a gun at him. Big mistake. Joe, a concealed-carry permit holder, drew a handgun and opened fire through the window, striking his assailant twice in the chest. The carjacker, who had just been released from state prison last November, ran a short distance and then died. (The Ledger, Lakeland, FL, 04/06/11)​

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Home alone in his two-story house, a man heard a knock at his door. Glancing out the window, he saw three men sneak around to the back sliding door. The sound of breaking glass made it clear that the men were entering the house. The homeowner went upstairs, locked himself in a bedroom and got his gun. At least one of the burglars approached the bedroom door and was about to enter when the resident opened fire, killing him. The other burglars fled, one of whom was nabbed by a responding officer’s police dog. (The News Tribune, Tacoma, WA, 04/05/11)​

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Church Minister Kimani Wright and his young son interrupted a burglary as they returned home one morning. Wright saw the burglar, who was armed, and immediately drew a handgun and opened fire. Glass shattered as bullets struck the front door. The burglar wisely ran away. According to police, the intruder was not struck. Neither Wright nor his son were injured. (The Fayetteville Observer, Fayetteville, NC, 04/21/11)​

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“You’re not supposed to knock old people down … I’m too old to be going through all that!” said 83-year-old James Brooks after a hair-raising burglary incident. It began when a man knocked on the door, claimed to have lost his cell phone and inquired whether Brooks had seen it. Soon after, a second man knocked on the door. “He told me to go sit on the couch because he didn’t want to kill me,” Brooks recalled. At first he thought the suspect was joking, but his intent to do harm quickly became clear. As the suspect attempted to lift Brooks’ television, Brooks saw his opportunity to retrieve a firearm. He fired a shot, wounding the suspect, who fled the scene with the assistance of two accomplices. Brooks said he’s lived in the neighborhood for more than 25 years and never had anything like this happen. “These young people have got their whole lives to live, why spoil it?” Brooks asked rhetorically. “I’m thinking [the suspect] got the message.” (Dayton Daily News, Dayton, OH, 04/30/11)​

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A woman and her husband pleaded with a man to quit attempting to break into their home. As the woman dialed 9-1-1, the suspect banged on the front door and shattered the surrounding glass. The husband shouted that he was armed with a rifle—he even fired two warning shots in an attempt to halt the break-in—but the suspect forced the door open anyway. As he entered the home, the husband fired a single shot from his .22-cal. rifle. The suspect was shot once in the chest and killed. (The World, Coos Bay, OR, 04/08/11)​

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For more EXCLUSIVE Armed Citizen stories, including from the Armed Citizen archives, and to comment on these stories, go to The Armed Citizen Blog.Studies indicate that firearms are used over 2 million times a year for personal protection, and that the presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, prevents crime in many instances. Shooting usually can be justified only where crime constitutes an immediate, imminent threat to life, limb, or, in some cases, property. Anyone is free to quote or reproduce these accounts. Send clippings to:”The Armed Citizen,” 11250 Waples Mill Road, Fairfax, VA 22030-9400Or e-mail your Armed Citizen story to armedcitizen@nrahq.org If you have a firsthand ”Armed Citizen” experience, call NRA-ILA PR/Communications at (703) 267-1193​

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