Yang Style Tai Chi; is it dead?

[Xue Sheng]

Not to hijack the thread here, but it is just amazing what people say sometimes. If they would just stop for a moment and think about what they are saying before they say it, it would be so much better.

But like they say: It is better to let the world think that you are a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt...

Agreed

 

[CrushingFist]

Xue Sheng.. come to NYC

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Actually my main concern is that it is dead as a martial art.

I do not consider any shortened forms such as 24 or 48, although I do know them, as Tai Chi for martial arts, although there are martial applications there. However I believe you would be hard pressed to find someone that taught 24 or 48 that knew real Tai Chi applications.

So I guess I could say Tai Chi is not dead, but I do feel it has changed for the worse if your goal is the whole package, including the martial arts.

given that set of definitions, i agree with you. what do you suppose has led to the -- is 'abandonment' the right word here -- of martial application of the tai chi?

is it a market thing? people in the us tend to think of tai chi as meditation, 'karate for hippies', someone said once. folks who want to fight don't generally think of tai chi. that could influence how it's been taught.

there are other places where that's happening. the whole XMA thing is turning kata into dance, for example.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng.. come to NYC

Thanks, can't, wife, kids work take priority.

 

[Xue Sheng]

is it a market thing? people in the us tend to think of tai chi as meditation, 'karate for hippies', someone said once. folks who want to fight don't generally think of tai chi. that could influence how it's been taught.

there are other places where that's happening. the whole XMA thing is turning kata into dance, for example.

All of the above. I heard from a long time Yang Style teacher in Beijing, and he even said none of his students want to know anything about martial arts, they just want exercise.

I have learned a lot of the martial arts of Tai Chi, but since my teacher changed push hands practice have even stopped.

With the onslaught of health seekers it is much more lucrative to teach Tai Chi for health than martial arts. With the New Agers it is much more lucrative to let them philosophize, chant do Qi Gong and look down on martial arts as something lesser than what they do. And, most unfortunately the truth is it is by far easier on the teacher.

Like I have said many times, and I am trying to find this article to post the link, there is a Chen style martial artist, trained by the Chen family and I believe he is currently in Beijing. He said that of all of the people doing Tai Chi in the world today he believes that only 5% know anything about the martial arts.

I use to teach Tai Chi, I quit for two reasons, one I did not feel at the time I had enough of an understanding to properly answer my students questions, two I lost students when I said Tai Chi was in reality a martial art.and that is all that I said, I wasn't even suggesting at that point teaching them any applications or push hands.

I use to teach Tai Chi, I quit for two reasons, one I did not feel at the time I had enough of an understanding to properly answer my students questions, two I lost students when I said Tai Chi was in reality a martial art. And that is all that I said, I wasn't even suggesting at that point teaching them any applications or push hands.

I once heard this from a person who claimed to be very knowledgeable about Tai Chi, and I quote: "I don't DO martial arts I DO Tai Chi"

 

[Flying Crane]

He said that of all of the people doing Tai Chi in the world today he believes that only 5% know anything about the martial arts.

I lost students when I said Tai Chi was in reality a martial art. And that is all that I said, I wasn't even suggesting at that point teaching them any applications or push hands.

I would certainly agree with the above first statement.

I do practice tai chi, but I don't fool myself about my level of understanding. While my sifu does know the fighting aspects of the art, most of his students are also people who just want excercise so it is hard for those few of us who want to learn the combat aspects to do so.

What I do find amazing is when people fool themselves into thinking that they have some solid fighting skills just because they practice a certain style like Chen Tai Chi, or some kind of Bagua. They seem to think that the art itself is magical and just because they practice the movements (usually poorly) then they will be able to fight if they ever need to. Like it's gonna just happen and everything will magically fall into place if they ever are attacked. These people are fooling themselves and I hope they never need to find out the hard way.

When people ask me what I do, I simply say "kung fu". If they ask what kind, I include Tai Chi as one style of kung fu that I practice. Sometimes they understand, sometimes they don't.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I do practice tai chi, but I don't fool myself about my level of understanding. While my sifu does know the fighting aspects of the art, most of his students are also people who just want excercise so it is hard for those few of us who want to learn the combat aspects to do so.

My Sifu use to teach things separately if you didn't want the martial arts, fine, he would teach you form and the Qi training. If you wanted martial arts, great, you learned form, Qi plus additional Qi aspects, push hands, and applications. However the later no longer happens, now it is only for health.

And I have a lot to learn yet, I am far from a master.

What I do find amazing is when people fool themselves into thinking that they have some solid fighting skills just because they practice a certain style like Chen Tai Chi, or some kind of Bagua. They seem to think that the art itself is magical and just because they practice the movements (usually poorly) then they will be able to fight if they ever need to. Like it's gonna just happen and everything will magically fall into place if they ever are attacked. These people are fooling themselves and I hope they never need to find out the hard way.

When people ask me what I do, I simply say "kung fu". If they ask what kind, I include Tai Chi as one style of kung fu that I practice. Sometimes they understand, sometimes they don't.

You are so right.

My very first Chinese martial arts teacher was a straight Wushu guy and he had students that could list the martial arts they had learned from him as Xingyi, Bagua, Shaolin Long fist, Chen, Yang, Wu, Mantis, Eagle claw, etc. and they went off to impress people with all that they knew. However when it came right down to it they knew how to dance, but fighting...no. As I am sure you well know, there is a big difference between doing a form and real world confrontations and I truly hope none of them ever had to find that out the hard way.

There is an old joke that comes to mind when I think about this and I promise I will not reference jokes often, or possibly ever again

A guy goes to a Karate school and gets his black belt, he is so impressed by himself he gets in his car and goes driving around looking for someone to fight. A truck cuts him off in traffic and he chases the truck until it stops. He pulls up to the truck jumps out of his car and yells KARATE…the truck drive gets out of his truck and yells MONKEY WRENCH…

 

[Flying Crane]

My very first Chinese martial arts teacher was a straight Wushu guy and he had students that could list the martial arts they had learned from him as Xingyi, Bagua, Shaolin Long fist, Chen, Yang, Wu, Mantis, Eagle claw, etc. and they went off to impress people with all that they knew. However when it came right down to it they knew how to dance, but fighting...no. As I am sure you well know, there is a big difference between doing a form and real world confrontations and I truly hope none of them ever had to find that out the hard way.

Ya know, the more I think about this, the more I think it comes down to an issue of responsibility. In truth, we are all responsible for our own learning and our own training. While our sifu has a responsibility to teach quality material and information or else not be a sifu, ultimately the responsibility is our own to be in charge of what we learn.

If a sifu CANNOT teach to the quality that we want, then we need to go elsewhere. If we believe that our sifu CAN teach to the quality that we want but does not due to reasons like pandering to the masses who only want exercise, then it is our responsibility to get the information from him if we want to stay with him. Let him teach the masses, but ask questions on the side. Then, GO PRACTICE, BY YOURSELF AND WITH ANYONE ELSE WHO IS WITH YOU ON THIS. Drill the applications on your own. It is not the sifu's responsibility to see that you do this. If you want to develop this skill, then it is your own responsibility to do this. If the sifu has given you the information, it is now up to you to do something with it. Check in with him to get corrections and more information, but we must accept the fact that if we are to improve and develop this skill then we often must do it ourselves.

With regard to your comments above, it is true if one only learns form and no application then it is only so much "dance" and exercise. Even the most hardcore and effective Chinese martial arts can be done as a hollow dance if application is not developed. In this case it would be little different from Modern Wushu, only not quite as fancy and pretty.

But if someone knows all this stuff as form, they can take that form and develop the useage of the material in the form. But again, it is their own responsibility to do this. The sifu has given the information. What the student does with it is his own choice, and the student will have to live with those consequences, either good or bad.

One could take just one form (say a Shaolin form, for example) and dissect it and drill the applications, and from that alone could become a fierce fighter. It really takes very little material to become a good fighter, if that material is done well. My sifu always says that in Tibetan White Crane, one only needs the first three punches, Chien Choi, Pau Choi, and Khap Choi for fighting. If you are really good with these and can switch them up quickly and overwhelm your opponent with them, then you need little else.

Just thinking out loud here, maybe some of this makes sense...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ya know, the more I think about this, the more I think it comes down to an issue of responsibility. In truth, we are all responsible for our own learning and our own training. While our sifu has a responsibility to teach quality material and information or else not be a sifu, ultimately the responsibility is our own to be in charge of what we learn.

If a sifu CANNOT teach to the quality that we want, then we need to go elsewhere. If we believe that our sifu CAN teach to the quality that we want but does not due to reasons like pandering to the masses who only want exercise, then it is our responsibility to get the information from him if we want to stay with him. Let him teach the masses, but ask questions on the side. Then, GO PRACTICE, BY YOURSELF AND WITH ANYONE ELSE WHO IS WITH YOU ON THIS. Drill the applications on your own. It is not the sifu's responsibility to see that you do this. If you want to develop this skill, then it is your own responsibility to do this. If the sifu has given you the information, it is now up to you to do something with it. Check in with him to get corrections and more information, but we must accept the fact that if we are to improve and develop this skill then we often must do it ourselves.

With regard to your comments above, it is true if one only learns form and no application then it is only so much "dance" and exercise. Even the most hardcore and effective Chinese martial arts can be done as a hollow dance if application is not developed. In this case it would be little different from Modern Wushu, only not quite as fancy and pretty.

But if someone knows all this stuff as form, they can take that form and develop the useage of the material in the form. But again, it is their own responsibility to do this. The sifu has given the information. What the student does with it is his own choice, and the student will have to live with those consequences, either good or bad.

One could take just one form (say a Shaolin form, for example) and dissect it and drill the applications, and from that alone could become a fierce fighter. It really takes very little material to become a good fighter, if that material is done well. My sifu always says that in Tibetan White Crane, one only needs the first three punches, Chien Choi, Pau Choi, and Khap Choi for fighting. If you are really good with these and can switch them up quickly and overwhelm your opponent with them, then you need little else.

Just thinking out loud here, maybe some of this makes sense...

Actually it all makes very good sense and I fully agree with you.

My Tai Chi teacher has said something similar about Tai Chi in regards to what one needs from Tai Chi to be a good martial artist. All that is needed is an understanding of the 13 postures. And I am grateful he gave me training in them.

And I agree, if a student learns, for example, long fist and trains it and learns to understand it he or she could become very accomplished fighter using what they have learned.

And there use to be a lot of people around that were martial artist in different styles and I use to train with them, and it does wonders for your push hands if you train with Karate people, Aikido people, Kung fu and Taekwondo people. But we all get older and gain more responsibilities so that option is no longer available.

And you are absolutely correct if the Sifu is not, will not or cannot teach what the student wants it is the responsibility of the student to find what he/she is looking for. It has taken me 2 years of thinking about this to come to the decision that I must leave. I have done what I can and discussed this with my teacher at length and it continues to get worse. So it is then up to me to either shut up and deal with it or move on.

My first teacher although he is a wushu person I owe a lot to, he did get me started in Chinese Martial arts and he did introduce me to Tai Chi, Xingyi and Bagua and I still talk to him from time to time. My second Teacher also taught me a lot although it was very brief, due to distance (although I am fairly certain I will be going back there soon). And my most recent teacher taught me a lot as well and I do honestly believe that training is rare today and I am lucky to have been able to learn from him. I greatly appreciate the Tung influence of the Yang Style I have been training with my Sifu. But as hard as the decision was it is simply time to go.

I have an appointment in Beijing to get my butt kicked by an old (long-time, possibly 50 to 60 years training) Yang style guy in May. He wants to do push hands with me when I am there. And I recently found another rare (at least in my area) teacher, a Xingyi teacher that is trying to get a class started and by the sounds of it he knows what he is doing (the first thing you start learning is stance training and Xingyi theory, forms come later). I start there the end of the month.

Also my current teacher is talking about opening a full time school and if he does I will go check it out.

And a strange side effect of deciding it was time to go, I feel like training more, so I do.

 

[Flying Crane]

But we all get older and gain more responsibilities so that option is no longer available.

I have done what I can and discussed this with my teacher at length and it continues to get worse. So it is then up to me to either shut up and deal with it or move on.

Very true, and very true. Sometimes leaving is the only choice to find what you need, but make sure you take with you the good things that you learned from this teacher. Just because you may no longer be with him, you still did learn good things from him. Keep that as part of your own training, don't throw it away just because you aren't with him anymore.

With regards to my earlier comments about responsibility: You are probably already familiar with this, but I think the traditional method of teaching in Chinese arts was very student-motivated. The sifu showed something, then the student practiced while the teacher did other things. It is a Western mentality that requires a teacher to be up front, leading the workout while the students simply turn off their brain and mimick the movement without thinking about what it means.

My sifu tells me about when he learned Tibetan Crane from his uncle. His uncle would show him two or three moves, then go in the back and read the newspaper. My sifu had to simply practice over and over. Then, an hour later, his uncle would come back out and demand to be shown what progress he made. His uncle would then give some corrections, maybe show a little more, and go back in to read the paper some more. I have heard similar stories from people who have trained with other traditional-minded sifus. If the student didn't have motivation to train, he would go absolutely nowhere. This kind of training can be disasterous for many people in the West, because it is so foreign to our notion of how a learning environment functions.

I guess this is where we must dig deep ourselves to understand what we have been shown, and develop an ability to learn it. But the Sifu still needs to be willing to play out his role in the relationship, and if he isn't then nothing can be learned.

Even tho a sifu may be pandering more and more to the exercise and new-age crowd, if he is still willing to take a moment and show you the real stuff on the side then maybe the relationship doesn't have to end.

Sounds like you have struggled with this for some time. Good luck, and I hope you find the right thing for you, wherever that may be.

 

[Xue Sheng]

With regards to my earlier comments about responsibility: You are probably already familiar with this, but I think the traditional method of teaching in Chinese arts was very student-motivated. The sifu showed something, then the student practiced while the teacher did other things. It is a Western mentality that requires a teacher to be up front, leading the workout while the students simply turn off their brain and mimick the movement without thinking about what it means.
My sifu tells me about when he learned Tibetan Crane from his uncle. His uncle would show him two or three moves, then go in the back and read the newspaper. My sifu had to simply practice over and over. Then, an hour later, his uncle would come back out and demand to be shown what progress he made. His uncle would then give some corrections, maybe show a little more, and go back in to read the paper some more. I have heard similar stories from people who have trained with other traditional-minded sifus. If the student didn't have motivation to train, he would go absolutely nowhere. This kind of training can be disasterous for many people in the West, because it is so foreign to our notion of how a learning environment functions.

I guess this is where we must dig deep ourselves to understand what we have been shown, and develop an ability to learn it. But the Sifu still needs to be willing to play out his role in the relationship, and if he isn't then nothing can be learned.

This is very true, when I go back to study with my second Sifu (also Yang style but from a different lineage) it will be very much this way, see him for several hours a day, for 2 or 3 days, about 2 or 4 times a year. I currently am also learning San Da in that way, very very slowly by Western standards.

Actually I thought it was going to be to much with everything else, and it is far from what I have trained, but I know the teacher, although I did not know until recently he had studied San Da for so long, he tells no one, but he got to know me and then wanted to teach me San Da and since he does not teach anyone he feels will miss use it, I couldn’t say no.

He has been teaching me in much the same way, shows me 1 or 2 things (basically go hit a tree like this, go do pullups like this, go do front snap kicks like this) makes sure I am doing them correctly and then doesn't show me anything else for about a month. I was very hard to get use to in the beginning, being a Westerner, but I am finding that I rather like it. This has been going on now for only 3 months, I am feared by trees everywhere.

Even tho a sifu may be pandering more and more to the exercise and new-age crowd, if he is still willing to take a moment and show you the real stuff on the side then maybe the relationship doesn't have to end.
Sounds like you have struggled with this for some time. Good luck, and I hope you find the right thing for you, wherever that may be.

It actually was this way for awhile, and I had no problem with that, but it all stopped last summer just before our usual 4 week break, when I was talking to him about, not asking him to teach, Tung Ying Chieh's fast form and he said no one else is ready. All of the additional training stopped after that. I was able to do some some push hands with him once sense then and was then told "next week you start the fast form" (Tung's) and the following week he was teaching the entire class a saber form, because it is easier to teach the whole group, with no mention of Tung's form.

So now we do a saber form, that no one practices, so I end up teaching the class over and over again it after he has finished so he can go help someone that missed a class or two. Which is generally ok, but when I ask about push hands or anything else I have noticed the sword class goes longer. I truly hold nothing against him, and like I said, I am grateful for what he has taught me and I will continue to practice, I just feel that it is time to leave.

However I am not burning any bridges, I just said I am taking some time off. If he does open a full time school I will go back to see what it is like. Also he has 2 senior students left, one is close to leaving however, I can still contact them to find out what is going on.

And Thank you

 

[Flying Crane]

What is San Da? I haven't heard of this.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What is San Da? I haven't heard of this.

I asked the same question when he said San Da.

It is San Shou, he calls it San Da, it's older terminology and that is what his teacher always called it, when he was learning in the North of China. I have no idea were his teacher learned it.

He does not know the fighting in the ring version, he was never trained how to fight in the ring, it is the police/military version.

Very external training for this old internal martial artist.

 

[CrushingFist]

Well Tai Chi like most people are calling its just Health exercises ?

Now Tai Chi Chuan | Taijiquan , must be everything Meditation, Health and Martial.

 

[Dronak]

I'm not sure if you were asking or telling, CrushingFist, but yes, I think you're right. From what I can tell, "tai chi chuan" or "taijiquan" is normally only used to refer to the whole art, including all the internal aspects and martial applications. "Tai chi" is often used to refer to practicing a form, mainly meant for exercise and health purposes. However, "tai chi" is also a shorter form of "tai chi chuan", so it can also be used to refer to martial applications and such. I suspect most people around here studying the art will use "tai chi" instead of "tai chi chuan" (or "taijiquan") to mean everything, not just health exercises. I doubt people would be on a martial art web board if they didn't at least recognize the martial aspects of tai chi.

 

[7starmantis]

Yeah, too much work saying and writting Taijiquan all the time. Plus, it can be a sign of the "overboard" type people if they use the full termonology so strictly.

7sm

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well Tai Chi like most people are calling its just Health exercises ?

Now Tai Chi Chuan | Taijiquan , must be everything Meditation, Health and Martial.

Tai Chi is the same as Tai Chi Chuan which is the same as Taijiquan. Just different spellings and shortening of the name. Also depending on whether the spelling you use is pinyin or Wade Giles.

The only difference is that "A Tai Chi" is also the avatar that I use and that you have spinning.

Tai Chi is a martial art, all forms within a Tai Chi form have applications, and many have several applications.

The postures however is all you really need to know and know well for martial applications.

There are different forms in every style.

Chen has at leas 4 empty had forms of varying speed

Yang has a long slow empty hand form and a short fast empty hand form

All also have weapons forms, sword, broad sword, spear, staff.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

...As for the Yangjia Michuan it looks very different from the Yang of Yang Zhen Duo....

Since you are or were in China, what about Yang Zhen Guo? He's Yang Zhen Duo's younger brother. Does his differ from the others?

I'm getting ready to start Tai Chi and my instructor to be is the student of one of Yang Zhen Guo's students.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

given that set of definitions, i agree with you. what do you suppose has led to the -- is 'abandonment' the right word here -- of martial application of the tai chi?

is it a market thing? people in the us tend to think of tai chi as meditation, 'karate for hippies', someone said once. folks who want to fight don't generally think of tai chi. that could influence how it's been taught.

there are other places where that's happening. the whole XMA thing is turning kata into dance, for example.

By comparison, Tai Chi is hard and Karate is easy. Tai Chi takes serious study and time to learn where as it takes a short time to learn how to use Karate. Most people in the US want the easy thing. In regards to Tai Chi here, it's the lack of dedication issue. You have people teaching Tai Chi who only learned enough to make it a workout (health and mind) and then they charge people to be their New Age or Holistic guru.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Since you are or were in China, what about Yang Zhen Guo? He's Yang Zhen Duo's younger brother. Does his differ from the others?

I'm getting ready to start Tai Chi and my instructor to be is the student of one of Yang Zhen Guo's students.

I am not certain, most likely the lineage comes from Yang Chengfu, were is, or was, Yang Zhen Guo living? There was a son of Yang Chengfu still alive and living in Hong Kong the last I knew. He was supposedly better trained that his younger brother Yang Zhen Dou. But I am not sure of his name.

Also how old is Yang Zhen Guo? Yang Zhen Duo is the youngest.