Would you recommend Budo Taijutsu?

Kage-Ronin

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Ok army combatives are nothing more than modified mma and are made to instill confidence not fighting ability. This is done because most of these newbees have never even been hit in the face. So you can rule that out. Also in the environment he will be in you don't want to go to the ground. In regards to krav maga here in the states it is mostly taught at tkd schools by guys who really can't fight, and have never had to use it. Most of it. There are rare instances when you get a good instructor from israel or one from anywhere that has had to use it. But its rare. The level of instruction here and the instructors themselves are not quality. The system itsself is great especially for the situation but I would be willing to bet he's not around a decent krav instructor. The fma are proven and much easier to find quality instruction in. And probably more cost effective too. Krav can get expensive so can budo taijutsu.


Not to de-rail the thread, but Matt Larsen, Tim Kennedy, and/or any of the TRADOC cadre involved with MACP would HIGHLY disagree with this statement. They specifically study AAR's from the field dealing with any and all uses of H2H fighting and how/whether MACP was or wasn't used and apply it to the program accordingly.

As to the original question, I would recommend FMA and possibly Judo to build on the combatives training he already has.

Good Luck to your friend. And from one veteran to another than for the continued service.( I retired last year and kinda miss it)
 

tenzen

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Kage ronin I gotta disagree with you. Matt larsen himself has said that is what it was for. The modified mma that they teach is not for the battlefield. It will not save you when your life is on the line. It is a sport that is why they have a team for each branch of military service and are working to build competitions for it. Now the knife and bayonet portiion ok ill give you that the unarmed portion not for the battlefield. Its a confidence builder. You can punch and kick and grapple all u want in the cage or ring or tire pit or sand pit doesn't matter. If your out of ammo and haji captures you, you better gouge his eyes and rip his throat out. Also a lot of the movements from the striking portion are not applicable while wearing all your gear. Some of the grappling is but that will slow you down and possibly cost you your life.

Ever heard them say that if you have to use it your already dead. Or the saying that they teach you just enough to get your *** whipped. Its all confidence because the new breed of soldiers are not fighters, most have never even been in a fight.
 

Kage-Ronin

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Kage ronin I gotta disagree with you. Matt larsen himself has said that is what it was for. The modified mma that they teach is not for the battlefield. It will not save you when your life is on the line. It is a sport that is why they have a team for each branch of military service and are working to build competitions for it. Now the knife and bayonet portiion ok ill give you that the unarmed portion not for the battlefield. Its a confidence builder. You can punch and kick and grapple all u want in the cage or ring or tire pit or sand pit doesn't matter. If your out of ammo and haji captures you, you better gouge his eyes and rip his throat out. Also a lot of the movements from the striking portion are not applicable while wearing all your gear. Some of the grappling is but that will slow you down and possibly cost you your life.

Ever heard them say that if you have to use it your already dead. Or the saying that they teach you just enough to get your *** whipped. Its all confidence because the new breed of soldiers are not fighters, most have never even been in a fight.

Gottta disagree with you too partner.

From the MACP website:

The goal of Modern Combatives is to change the culture so that real combative ability is expected of every Soldier by teaching realistic training methods and growing self sustaining indigenous Combatives programs within units and organizations.

and:

It is not enough to simply tell soldiers to be aggressive; they must have a faith in their abilities built through hard and arduous training and know that they are going to win; so that when that weapon does malfunction three feet from the bad guy, they will instinctively attack.

and:


A systematic approach to training emerged, which detailed the techniques that would be taught, and in what order. Rangers would start with the basics of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu ground fighting, and progress into the throws and takedowns of Judo and Wrestling, and the strikes of Boxing and Muay Thai. All of this could combine with marksmanship and contact weapons training from Kali and the western martial arts into a totally integrated system of Close Quarters Combat, yielding Rangers who could transition smoothly between ranges of combat, with or without weapons, individually or as a group.

Finally:

With constant feedback from the battlefield, the system continues to grow to meet the needs of today's Soldiers.

I absolutely agree that it teaches confidence. But where we differ in opinion is that it has no use on the batllefield.

Case in point (applicable portion highlighted in red)

Training at hand
Fighting in Iraq, one soldier decides he isn?t going to die lying down


By Staff Sgt. Paul McCully
The following story was told by infantryman Staff Sgt. Paul McCully, 24, during a post-action interview for the Army Combatives School.
On June 1, 2005, at about 2 a.m., my platoon was staged by the main gate of Forward Operating Base Courage in Mosul, Iraq, as the quick-reaction force for our battalion.
We received a call that Iraqi commandos were conducting a raid on a suspected insurgent safe house. When the commandos entered the house they found one male, one nude female and next to them was a bomb.
They immediately left the house because of the bomb and sat outside in the middle of the street and wherever they could while they waited for us to come and secure the objective. There were guys sleeping, smoking cigarettes and just hanging around. There were at least 100 of these commandos.
When we showed up, it was a blind hit. All the Iraqi commandos told us was that they had taken fire from that building earlier. They left out that it was a safe house for bad guys and that the people who had been there had jumped the roof to the next house.
At the home of the bomb couple, my team was the second in to secure the first floor and establish a foothold. Once we cleared the house, my platoon sergeant stepped on what seemed to be a loose tile in the kitchen floor.
When we removed it we found a large cache of rocket-propelled grenades, ammo, U.S. government-issued C4 explosive, two-way radios and multiple weapons systems, but no people.
Since the roof was connected to the roof of the house behind the one we were in, the call was made to move around and clear that house, too. Once my team moved into position to breach the second house, we were given the word to move and secure it.
Immediately upon entry, we were confronted by about 20 men, women and children, who were all awake and seemed scared. The fact that they were bunched together like that was a red flag that something was not right.
Once we secured the first floor, my team moved in to secure the group of people so we could move up to the next floor and to the roof entrance.
The door was barricaded from the inside with a bed frame to keep people from coming in. Once we managed to move the barricade, we stacked on the door and proceeded to clear the roof.
I was the second man in the stack, and Sgt. Joshua Owens was first.
We were spread thin, so we mixed our teams to keep the forward momentum.
Owens went out and turned right. I followed him and went left, but there was a wall, so I fanned right to cover Owens.
We were only a couple of steps outside the door; I was just to the left of Owens, and about two seconds had passed by, when a bright flash lit us up.
I wasn?t sure what had happened, I just knew I was laid out on my stomach, and I couldn?t feel my hands or legs. I could hear Owens screaming, and I was checking myself to see if I was physically intact when another explosion went off, a hand grenade, but it wasn?t as loud as the first one.
I felt the shrapnel impact my helmet but was still in a daze and confused as to what was going on.
Then I felt something that seemed to be tapping my helmet and everything sounded muffled.
My initial thought was that it was my guys pulling me out of there, but when I looked up, everything came back to me ? sound, reality, cleared vision.
There was a bad guy standing over me.
I was looking up at him and expecting him to unload his AK47 on me, but he was screaming and butt-stroking me in the head.
The second I realized that it wasn?t my guys, I got up as fast as I could and grabbed his AK muzzle with my right hand and his shirt on his right shoulder with my left hand.
I don?t even remember placing my hands on the ground to push myself up; it just seemed like I floated up ? that?s how fast it happened.
After I grabbed him and his weapon, I was jerking it in an outward motion but making sure to keep the muzzle away from me.
After what seemed to be two or three seconds, I got the AK out of his hands and on the ground to the right of me a couple of feet. I had finally jerked it free, and it went flying.
He tried to dive for the AK, but I grabbed him and went to the clinch with him to control him. A clinch is when you control a person?s upper body by placing both your hands around his neck. Our bodies were close together; I had his hair in my right hand, pushing his head down, and my left hand was controlling his left shoulder.
I immediately started throwing right uppercuts and knees to [mess] him up.
I did that because I thought that there were more of my own guys behind me, but it turns out that Owens and I were the only ones to make it outside before the initial explosion. The No. 3 and No. 4 men got blown back into the building.
After I threw the blows, I held on to him with the shirt and hair and extended my arms to allow the guys who I thought were behind me to have a clear shot. But that never happened. It seemed like I was alone, and nobody was there to help me.
He was screaming stuff about Allah as I continued to hit him as he was struggling to get to his weapon. Owens came running up to me with his pistol drawn. He had lost his M4 rifle in the blast also, so he pulled his M9 pistol.
He came up to my right side, right next to me so he wouldn?t shoot me in the struggle. Right as he fired one shot into the enemy?s stomach, the enemy had reached up and grabbed Owen?s pistol.
At that moment I let go and took a step back and secured my M4. Owens had swung him around to the left, which put him right in front of me.
With Owens and the bad guy fighting for Owens? M9, I put the barrel of my rifle in the bad guy?s right side, point-blank, right underneath his armpit, and fired a single shot.
The bad guy squealed like a pig and hit the ground like a sack, landing on his back. I immediately placed the barrel of my rifle in his face and fired ten shots to finish him. All of this happened within a matter of about 20 seconds, but seemed like forever.
As far as my kit goes, I didn?t have a knife on me at that time. I was wearing a Tactical Taylor plate carrier with 7.62 x 61mm armor-piercing incendiary-proof plates, hatch operator gloves, ballistic eye-pro and knee pads.
After I shot him in the face, I took a knee and was trying to comprehend everything that had just happened. It was just kind of, I was like, ?Holy ****, did this just happen?? It was kind of like a weird euphoria thing going on.
My platoon leader came out and asked if we were hit, and I told him nothing hurt, but my leg felt different. They pulled me and Owens into the building for the medic. Since we had blood and charred flesh and hair all over us, it was hard for the medic to tell what was ours and what wasn?t.
So Spc. Danny Pech, our platoon medic, and Spc. Joshua Curley, my rifleman, with the help of Spc. Jay Banuelos, carried us down to the designated casualty collection point and started stripping us down so they could administer aid.
My wound was first reported as a gunshot wound to my right thigh, and Owens had a bullet graze on his right shin and shrapnel to the arms and legs.
Once we were medevaced to the main combat support hospital on Forward Operating Base Diamondback in Mosul, we were given morphine and sent for X-rays to see what was inside us.
My wound was actually shrapnel, which split into three pieces when it impacted my leg, stopping just short of my femoral artery. Owens had shrapnel in his arm and leg and a bullet graze on his right shin.
I?ve always been a pretty aggressive person, but having some stuff to back you up, the Army combatives training, is great. Knowledge and experience is always good to have.
When I looked up and saw [the enemy] standing over me, all I really thought about was, ?This guy?s going to blast me.? I was thinking about how I was going to let my kids down, and I just said, ?Screw it, I?m not going to die lying down like this.? I just jumped up and expected him to pull the trigger, but he never got the chance.
The writer is assigned to 2nd Squadron, 2nd Stryker Cavalry Regiment, in Vilseck, Germany. At the time of the events, he was a member of B Company, 3rd Battalion, 21st Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade, 25th Infantry Division, Stryker Brigade Combat Team, of Fort Lewis, Wash.



So I suppose that the modified MMA he learned did help him, wouldn't you?

 

tenzen

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The striking is not effective in full combat gear. I was a ranger stationed at ft benning for 4yrs. And went through their courses for combatives. I have been a martial artist literally my whole life and most of what is taught is not effective in your gear. The grappling you are taught is effective to an extent due to their origins being in armor. Their striking however was not developed to be used while wearing armor and the mechanics that they use when teaching them are all wrong. They could have went a better way with that part. Some of what they teach is effective on the battlefield but most is not. When your life is on the line u don't want to box the guys your going to want to structurally destroy them and this is not taught in their program. It. Was wrong of me to say its completely ineffective because some is applicable but it is all better done without your gear. Its just mma and mma has rules which will hinder true save your *** ability. But mma is the trend now so that's what you can expect, either way its sporting modified and is not as effective as it has the potential to be.
Back to the original topic though find an fma to train in and you will be better off.
 

Kage-Ronin

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I took some time before replying so as to decide how I wanted to proceed.

I was a ranger stationed at ft benning for 4yrs. And went through their courses for combatives

Having not seen any evidence to back up your claim, I will take your word at face value that you were in fact a Ranger. In today's age of internet wannabe's that's a big leap of faith. No insult intended, there's just a long list of fakers that have claimed SF/ Ranger/SEAL/ Recon background and once the onion was peeled, their claims didn't pan out. Dux comes to mind.

The striking is not effective in full combat gear.

Their striking however was not developed to be used while wearing armor and the mechanics that they use when teaching them are all wrong. They could have went a better way with that part.

What better way should they have gone? There is only a limited amount of time to teach the material. What else could they teach to get the most of their time, and that can be easily recalled other than boxing/MT?

I have been a martial artist literally my whole life and most of what is taught is not effective in your gear.

So then what exactly qualifies you to judge the effectiveness or non-effectiveness of the program? I have been doing martial arts myself since 1995, I wouldn't justify that being the grounds to judge the system being taught. I do know that what they are doing now is far and gone way better than the pugil stick and few judo throws we did when I went through basic at Ft Bliss in 1988.

When your life is on the line u don't want to box the guys your going to want to structurally destroy them and this is not taught in their program.

Eloborate on this please. If my fists are rapidly hitting you in the face and body and you have no time to recover or get your balance until I get my weapon into play or my buddy shows up, are you not structurally destroyed?

Its just mma and mma has rules which will hinder true save your *** ability. But mma is the trend now so that's what you can expect, either way its sporting modified and is not as effective as it has the potential to be.

Please see below:

Its just mma and mma has rules which will hinder true save your *** ability. But mma is the trend now so that's what you can expect, either way its sporting modified and is not as effective as it has the potential to be.

Please see below:

He tried to dive for the AK, but I grabbed him and went to the clinch with him to control him. A clinch is when you control a person?s upper body by placing both your hands around his neck. Our bodies were close together; I had his hair in my right hand, pushing his head down, and my left hand was controlling his left shoulder.
I immediately started throwing right uppercuts and knees to [mess] him up.

I did that because I thought that there were more of my own guys behind me, but it turns out that Owens and I were the only ones to make it outside before the initial explosion. The No. 3 and No. 4 men got blown back into the building.
After I threw the blows, I held on to him with the shirt and hair and extended my arms to allow the guys who I thought were behind me to have a clear shot. But that never happened. It seemed like I was alone, and nobody was there to help me.
He was screaming stuff about Allah as I continued to hit him as he was struggling to get to his weapon. Owens came running up to me with his pistol drawn. He had lost his M4 rifle in the blast also, so he pulled his M9 pistol.
He came up to my right side, right next to me so he wouldn?t shoot me in the struggle. Right as he fired one shot into the enemy?s stomach, the enemy had reached up and grabbed Owen?s pistol.
At that moment I let go and took a step back and secured my M4. Owens had swung him around to the left, which put him right in front of me.
With Owens and the bad guy fighting for Owens? M9, I put the barrel of my rifle in the bad guy?s right side, point-blank, right underneath his armpit, and fired a single shot.



So what "mma rules" were used here? It seems to me that given the circumstances what he did was pretty freaking effective.

But all this aside, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

To the OP, if your friend does judo, make sure he tells the instructor what his goals and plans are so he can adjust the training accordingly.
 

tenzen

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Anything said over the net has to be taken at face value nowadays. Dux that's classic. Thanx for the laugh I almost forgot about that guy.
Your right their time is very limited which goes to show you that they aren't really taught ****. The focus should be on gross motor movements that you don't have to think about at a spllit second things you would just do. I covered this in a post on the first page of this thread. The movements should be able to be performed to the fullest whether in armor or not or injured or not or tired etc.
What qualifies me to judge? I started training at 3years old both of my parents were martial arts instructors as well as my grandfather on my mothers side. I have studied a multitude of martial arts gaining instructor certs in a few. I have worked as a bouncer and had to actually use what I know not just theory but practical application. I know what works and what doesn't. I also have a hobby in the field of bio mechanics. I like to know how and why we work the way we do so I know how to stop an opponent from working.
Boxing is a sport, it would be better to teach the soldiers to cause structural damage to the enemy than to try to box with them. For instance stomp out the knee hammer fist the collar bone and snap a few arms if need be. Maybe gouge the eyes rip the ears crush the larnyx. Real down and dirty battlefield effective stuff. Not how to fight a few rounds. There's a difference between real combat and combat sports. Just hitting someone in the face and body until u can get some back up doesn't necessarily mean they have been structurally destroyed. What I mean is they can no longer advance towards you. If the enemy is hyped up on some sort of drug they will keep comming no matter how much you punch them in the face you need to take away their ability to move. Also some have a very high pain threshold and might be a better boxer than you especially since you only get a block of instruction 3 weeks in length.
And I'm sorry sir but that story you keep posting sounds like a load of ****, I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels that way. Not saying it didn't happen but it sounds a little far fetched.
Now let's break this down a bit:
Brazillian jiu jitsu- combat sport
Judo- combat sport
Wrestling- combat sport
Boxing- combat sport
Muay thai- combat sport
Am I making my point at all yet? Its mma and it is hindered by rules. I mean they don't even teach small joint manipulation or standing joint locks at all for that matter.
I will say that them teaching what they are is a good thing but it has to be taken for what it is. Not blown up to be the greatest invention of man ever because it is far from it. But they want you to think your superman after you learn this extremely basic set of techniques. That's why these guys go out to the bars and clubs and get their asses whooped by joe blow. Because it builds their confidence, sure they may learn a few things but there is not hardly enough time put into their training nor are they doing the proper training for the situation.
It has been said numerous times that to take a technique and to be able to use it correctly it has to be drilled thousands upon thousands of times, that's not what's happening during their crash courses. So in my humble opinion for the time they have gross motor movements should be taught along with neurolgical shut down spots and skeletal weaknesses of the human body.
 

Kage-Ronin

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I am going to quote you something from a buddy of mine:

"No contact: Not hitting = not fighting. Not fighting = not "martial" art. If you are not making contact, you do not know how you will react to contact. if you are not moving at full speed with real intent, then you do not know what full speed and intent will entail. Ergo, you are NOT prepared for actual fighting."

For instance stomp out the knee hammer fist the collar bone and snap a few arms if need be. Maybe gouge the eyes rip the ears crush the larnyx. Real down and dirty battlefield effective stuff.

So you tell me right now how many people have you heel stomped on the knee, hammer fisted on the collar, snapped arms, gouged eyes, ripped ears, and crushed larnyx in training?

How many????

My guess is probably zero b/c you can't practice those things at full speed with enough repetition with out running out of training partners, period.

The focus should be on gross motor movements that you don't have to think about at a spllit second things you would just do.

How much thinking is required behind jab/cross/close/clinch/knee or punch/punch/punch/punch/punch sequence?

What qualifies me to judge? I started training at 3years old both of my parents were martial arts instructors as well as my grandfather on my mothers side. I have studied a multitude of martial arts gaining instructor certs in a few.

Fair enough, but

I have worked as a bouncer and had to actually use what I know not just theory but practical application.

doesn't mean jack in the scenarios we're talking about.

Now let's break this down a bit:
Brazillian jiu jitsu- combat sport
Judo- combat sport
Wrestling- combat sport
Boxing- combat sport
Muay thai- combat sport
Am I making my point at all yet? Its mma and it is hindered by rules.

Those combat sports are the very things that can be taught at full speed, in a training environment, without risk of injury, that can be taken back, drilled endlesssly and built upon.

I will say that them teaching what they are is a good thing but it has to be taken for what it is. Not blown up to be the greatest invention of man ever because it is far from it.

Like I said before, it is a vast improvement from 1988. And I know there's holes in it. For example, I did a straight grappling match with a guy back in '08 over in 5th Fleet AOR who was certified up to level 2 in MACP. (don't have video so sorry) I wiped the floor with him from a strictly sporting standpoint b/c it was strictly jujitsu, he had no choke defense and gave up his back alot. I wouldn't want to jump that same guy in house with all of his gear on b/c he has more options at his disposal (punches/kicks/knees/elbows/M4/M9/the rest of his squad) and no longer constrained by the agreed upon rules of our friendly match.

And I'm sorry sir but that story you keep posting sounds like a load of ****, I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels that way. Not saying it didn't happen but it sounds a little far fetched.

Take it up with the writer, I only saved it for the content.

Anything said over the net has to be taken at face value nowadays. Dux that's classic. Thanx for the laugh I almost forgot about that guy.

You're welcome.
 

tenzen

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I firmly believe in making full contact and there is a thing called a red man suit they are used in womens selfdefense classes so the type of tech niques I described can be practiced at full speed. The sporting part is a must but what I'm saying is its only a small part of it. It has its place no doubt but the gaps need to be filled with the types of things they can actually use. And there's more than just the red man suit there are a lot of different dummies that can be used to practice these techniques. Obviously not as great as working with a live person but it can be trained and real fighting ability can be learned. You can also practice these things with a non padded partner by exercising what we in the martial arts world call control. You just gotta know the difference of practice and application. But you can train this way with force. I wasn't talking about empty drilling I find that close to pointless.
They can be built upon as you said but that is not the case, we both know that. I know that you know what they are being taught instills a false sense of ability. I mean there is no way these soldiers can possibly become proficient in these skills with the short amount of time they have. They need to be programmed to react instinctively to be deadly not to do what they are currently doing. For instance the marines used to have the l.I.n.e.s system and it did just that although it too was flawed it served a real applicable battlefield purpose. That's why it is now taught here at ft bragg when the soldiers go through the sf q course. Ron don vito the creator of lines used to have an academy here I know the guy and he means business. He's in florida now but that's beside the point. Their system is flawed today and is designed solely to teach the newbies to have confidence and to be aggressive, true fighting technique in those systems that are drawn from takes years of training not weeks.
But no matter who's right here we both have our own opinions and we need to let this go because I think we kind of hijacked this thread. Sorry about that guys and girls. My sincerest apologies.
 

Bruno@MT

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I don't mind the off topic, but some punctuation and using paragraphs would be nice and make your posts more readable. Noone enjoys large blobs of continuous text.
 

MJS

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This is directed at Kage and tenzen. Other than watching youtube clips of MCMAP or other Army comabtives stuff, I've never seen it live. So, that being said, someone, I believe tenzen, said that what is taught, is not usually effective with gear on. That being said, a) why isn't it effective and b) shouldnt the stuff being taught be effective? I mean, whats the sense of learning something if it only works in a specific situation? Now, befor someone says something about that, let me clarify. What I mean is...take a jab and a cross. That'd be like saying those punches only work if someone is wearing a t shrit. If you're wearing a winter jacket, you cant throw the jab and cross. Yes, you can still throw them, though movement will slightly differ due to the jacket.
 

tenzen

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What I was meaning is the mechanics of those techniques are held back by the gear that is worn. The vest doesn't allow a good range of movement for motions like that. Its like when you have a dog chained up and you play fetch with him, he can only go so far and its not far enough. The samurai wore armor and understood this that's why they use chopping motions and such in their striking. Armor of any kind will limit your range of motion and that has to be taken into consideration. Also the strikes of boxing and muay thai will tire you out a lot quicker than chopping which can be done with a good amount of force whether you are fatigued or not or wearing armor or whatever. When you become exhausted its hard to hold your arms up and throw them out with any significant force, it is easier to lift your arm and let it come crashing down on structural weak points ie. The temple jaw and collar bone for instance.
Hope this clarifies a bit.
 

Kage-Ronin

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I firmly believe in making full contact and there is a thing called a red man suit they are used in womens selfdefense classes so the type of tech niques I described can be practiced at full speed.

Really? You're going to crush the larnyx in a redman suit? Snap an arm? Break a collar bone?

The sporting part is a must but what I'm saying is its only a small part of it.

I think it is a large part b/c they can work on things over and over until it becomes part of the muscle memory.

You can also practice these things with a non padded partner by exercising what we in the martial arts world call control. You just gotta know the difference of practice and application.

"No contact: Not hitting = not fighting. Not fighting = not "martial" art. If you are not making contact, you do not know how you will react to contact. if you are not moving at full speed with real intent, then you do not know what full speed and intent will entail. Ergo, you are NOT prepared for actual fighting."

Also the strikes of boxing and muay thai will tire you out a lot quicker than chopping which can be done with a good amount of force whether you are fatigued or not or wearing armor or whatever. When you become exhausted its hard to hold your arms up and throw them out with any significant force, it is easier to lift your arm and let it come crashing down on structural weak points ie. The temple jaw and collar bone for instance.


I am sorry but fatigue is fatigue, you will not have the strength to throw ANY blow with ANY kind of force when you are tired.
But no matter who's right here we both have our own opinions and we need to let this go because I think we kind of hijacked this thread. Sorry about that guys and girls. My sincerest apologies. Yesterday 09:30 PM

But no matter who's right here we both have our own opinions and we need to let this go because I think we kind of hijacked this thread. Sorry about that guys and girls. My sincerest apologies.

Ditto, sorry for the hijacked thread.
 
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MJS

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Alot of the clips that I've seen, have shown the people wearing tshirts and camo pants. No other gear. Again, this is only what I've seen, and I'm sure I may've missed something.

As I said, I think that they do need some sort of effective H2H fighting methods and it should be trained in any setting in which they may encounter.

Now, what type of gear are we talking about? Stuff that they carry or what they're wearing? If its what they're wearing, what type of protective gear is it? Some stuff I've seen as far as protective gear, is kinda bulky, but and I know its not cheap, Tony Blauer has some good stuff, that seems to allow good movement.
 

tenzen

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No they are not the same when fatigued. When your arms feel like jello you can still deliver a lot of force with the help of gravity to cause damage. Not fighting gravity by throwing your arms out. Also you are using a larger muscle group that is less likely to tire out.
And you can practice doing those things with the red man suit its called control. I begining to wonder about your martial arts pedigree here guy.
And no its not worked over and over and over because they don't have that kind of time. And that's what I have been trying to get at but your just not understanding me here. Their ability is sub par because they don't train for an extended period of time and most don't continue to practice it once they have finished the course. Therefore rendering it ineffective.
And once again I will say you don't have to actually crush the larnyx or break a collar bone to learn how to do it and be able to apply it. You just have to know when to turn on that killer instinct fight or flight. That is the purpose of what they are doing now. They are building that confidence and aggression/ killer instinct. But now they need to teach them to be deadly not be able to fight for 3 rounds and let the judges decide. They have the first part now they need to continue and show them the stuff that will save their lives in a hairy situation.
Do you follow what I'm saying here?
Because I'm beginning to think that all you know about martial arts is what the military has shown you which is very little. Anyone who has trained for as long as you say you have knows the difference between sport and non sport, but I see your trying to imply they are one and the same. Maybe I'm. Just reading your posts wrong here.
 

tenzen

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Also I would like to add they they are not training long enough to develop any kind of muscle memory. So that negates that.
 

jks9199

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For those talking about MCMAP, Army Combatives, the LINE System, and other military hand to hand training -- perhaps you can give us some idea how you know about it. MCMAP and Army Combatives aren't the same. The LINE was different yet -- and hasn't been part of USMC training for several years.

There's a big difference between defensive tactics/military combatives, and martial arts, even though there's some overlap. DT-type approaches generally focus on rapidly acquired, easily learned, gross muscle movements aimed at specific goals (either survival, or subduing & controlling a subject). They don't care about whys or principles. Martial arts become more complex; they layer reasons and justifications onto the gross movements, and they refine those movements. (This is a bit of an oversimplification, but it gives a basis for discussion).
 

tenzen

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Lvl 3 combatives instructor for the army and a friend of ron donvito the creator of lines. Yes lines is not taught in the marines anymore but it is taught here at ft bragg to the special forces during the qualifying course. I have trained lines extensively. I believe I have some ground to stand on in this conversation. I have also studied numerous martial arts spanning literally my entire life.

I'm here to tell you what is taught in the armys combatives program in regards to hand to hand is is mma. Also it does not rely on gross motor movements, this may differ in the marines due to the inclusion of lines because lines is part of mcmap.
 

MMcGuirk

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Interesting debate. I don't have a lot of input but more questions I suppose. Please bear with me:

First off for the OP, as far as Bujinkan Budo goes, I think it works great but I'm biased. I've used it in real life against a mugger and it worked great.
When we have enough people and always in Japan we practice multiple attackers and weapons. I also run into a lot of current and ex-military from other countries when in Japan so it really affirms my conviction if you learn BBT from the right people it is effective but it is also up to Y O U to practice and be honest with yourself.

As far as MCMAP, having seen some of the curriculum and looked at the Army combatives I am disappointed in the Army combatives. The marines seem more realistic when it comes to combatives in the field as much as it pains me to write that. :) This is not to say the one on one training is all bad, but when we had "king of the pit" practice ( I was light infantry, Army btw) you did some judo moves, boxing and kicking or just plain tackle as best you can. God help you if fell because it was dog pile time. :) What I'm getting at is if it came to hand to hand something went wrong. And then if it was hand to hand there wasn't any one on one, it would be three on one or the squad on one. And everyone carried a bayonet.

So finally the question: what is the training for multiples? In the light infantry we hardly ever had the 9 man per the org chart. But we always had multiples in squad, platoon and company size elements. So any fight you got into, your squad or platoon would be joining in. the exception might be during a POW snatch and even then two or three guys would similate "grabbing" the guy and just hog tying them.

Hope that made sense.
 

tenzen

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Made perfect sense. We did not say that he should not learn bbt nor say it was ineffective, just not what he should choose for the time frame he was given. BBT takes time, time he does not have.

As for your question there isn't anything in hand to hand that covers multiples as far as the army goes. And I appreciate your input in the second paragraph by the way, as it goes along with what I have been trying to get across. Thank you.

There are plenty of methods that could have been taught to save your ***, but they aren't. The main focus in army combatives, like I have been saying from the get go, is to instill confidence and agression in the new and current soldiers. This is because our society has been pussified for lack of a better term. My guess would be some 90% of these soldiers have never been in a real physical confrontation. What is being taught to them is not going to save their *** but get it handed to them. I see it constantly. And that was the whole point I was trying to make. Its not for the battlefield.

Also my arguement was aimed at the armys program because that's what the op said his buddy had experience with if my memory serves me right. I will agree that the marines have a far better program, but even there, there are many many flaws.
 

Kage-Ronin

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Sorry it took me a minute to get back to y'all. It's finals week and I am busier than a one armed man sacking rattlesnakes.

So where were we?

Well rather than post a reply with a bunch of your quotes in it, I will attempt to justify why I believe MACP isn't a waste of time.

My own experiences with MACP is, in addition to grappling with that guy, having a pdf. copy of the training manual that he gave me after many long hours of discussion about it (MACP) and arguing about the it's merits while on watch for 6 hours at a time in 130 degree heat.

Ditto with MCMAP, almost the same scenario only the match was with a corpsman who had been with the Marines and had done MCMAP(I forget what belt he was and he gave me a pdf. copy of the manual). Additionally I have a buddy I mentored during the first half of his career who is now a Seabee that did MCMAP before and during his time in Douchbagistan. We had many hours of discussion about it when he got back.

I did three years of LINE training when I was stationed in SC at the weapons station while I was assigned to ASF.

I am going to have to split this up into two posts since my 16 month old just woke up and I have to make dinner.

Real quick though, my martial arts experience:

Tang Soo Do - 6 months
Karate/judo/boxing - 3 yrs
BJJ - 6 months
JJJ - 4 years off and on
Bujinkan with a little Muay Thai and escrima thrown in - 1998 to present
back in Judo - July last year to present

I'd be interested in Tenzens' pedigree if he is willing to share.

Okay gotta go chase the baby, more later.
 
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