Women in combat arms? Infantry, Armor, ...

[billc]

Here is an article about women in actual combat arms, the infantry or armor...

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/09/the-harsh-reality-of-women-in-infantry-combat/

I expect many to claim “sexism” and read this as some kind of “slight” against the service of women. I intend nothing of the sort. Women have served bravely in those branches and positions open to them. Clearly, women have proven the equal worth of men in many areas. However, as biology and common sense make clear, men and women are distict. This is particularly the case when it comes to the physical nature of brutal Infantry ground combat. A problem comes with the Media’s portrayal of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Seldom does the average American learn about the nuances of the branches within the different Armed services and distinctions I have mentioned.

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More later...

 

[Tez3]

While, technically women in the Uk armed forces aren't supposed to be on the front line, they can't join an infantry regiment for example, they are however right in the thick of it and it's proving, like having gays in the military to be no problem. I don't think it's a case of sexism, it's a case of expecting people to behave like adults. It's a bit of a nonsense to say when you have mena dn women fighting together the men behave differently to the detriment of the military, they do behave differently but to the benefit of the military, far less of the male 'hoseplay' for a start.

While women can't become infantry soldiers here they do however go out on patrol with them, often the Combat Medical Technician from the Royal Army Medical corps with the regiment is female, there's been notable incidents with these female medics winning medals and being mentioned in dispatches for their bravery and cool thinking in action. There's many soldiers owe their lives to these young women who treat and defend their patients out on the ground like lionesses. The current hearts and minds policies in Afghan mean that female military personnel go out on patrol with the men and can hold their own in a fire fight. The men assume, quite rightly, that the women are trained enough, intelligent enough and disciplined enough not to need baby sitting or any quixotic behaviour from the men. They are a team and act as such. Military men trust their lives to many women, the ATOs, the pilots, the drivers, the medics etc. We've had women killed in action, the reaction was on sadness at a member of the militarys death not outrage at a women being killed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oman-medic-killed-fighter-Taliban-ambush.html

 

[elder999]

Women have been serving as front line combat soldiers for the state of Israel since 1948, with no recorded detriment to efficacy or morale.

 

[billc]

Then there is this on Israel...

http://www.wnd.com/2001/08/10269/

“For example, it is a common misperception that Israel allows women in combat units. In fact, women have been barred from combat in Israel since 1950, when a review of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War showed how harmful their presence could be. The study revealed that men tried to protect and assist women rather than continue their attack. As a result, they not only put their own lives in greater danger, but also jeopardized the survival of the entire unit. The study further revealed that unit morale was damaged when men saw women killed and maimed on the battlefield,” Luddy said.
Writes Edward Norton, a reservist in the Israel Defense Forces: “Women have always played an important role in the Israeli military, but they rarely see combat; if they do, it is usually by accident. No one in Israel, including feminists, has any objection to this situation. The fact that the Persian Gulf War has produced calls to allow women on the front lines proves only how atypical that war was and how little Americans really understand combat.”

and this as well...

Women were active participants in Israel's 1948 war for independence. At some point during the war it was decided that women would no longer participate in battle but would fulfill other roles.

Women no longer participate in front line combat, but they train for it, and teach it to recruits. Many women have the status of "Kravi", or "Combat troops".

and then this...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/femcom.html

In 1999, Israel announced that women would begin serving as combat soldiers in the year 2000. According to a plan prepared by the Israel Defense Forces, female units would serve along the Egyptian and Jordanian borders and, eventually, take on the vast majority of border patrol duty.
The Caracal company, for example, is being trained to patrol the border for drug smugglers and terrorist infiltrators. This is a coed unit whose 200 female soldiers outnumber the men by 2-to-1. The elite commando K9 unit, Oketz, also drafts females as dog trainers and soldiers.
In early 2000, the IDF decided to also deploy women in the artillery corps, followed by infantry units, armored divisions and elite combat units. The Navy has also decided to place women in its diving repair unit. Altogether, at the beginning of 2004, about 450 women were in combat units.

I also saw a piece years ago on 60 minutes about women in the Israeli army. They serve in just about everything but ground combat units. They are really good instructors.

 

[Big Don]

IMHO, Armor, sure, Infantry, Artillery, NO F'n way

 

[elder999]

Then there is this on Israel....

Women served as front line combat soldiers in the Yom Kippur war, in 1973.

 

[billc]

Do you have paperwork for that assertion elder?

http://www.idfblog.com/reports/60-years-of-women’s-service-in-the-idf/

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinf/articles/20091028.aspx

There is also a largely female infantry unit, the Caracal Battalion. Part of the 512th Brigade in Southern Command, the battalion was formed in 2000 to provide a place for women who wanted to be in the infantry. It's a light infantry units that mainly serves along the Jordanian or Egyptian borders. The battalion took part in safeguarding Israeli civilians and troops during the 2005 evacuation of Gaza. Initially, about half the troops in Caracal were female, as are most of the officers and NCOs, and, usually, the commander. Now about 90 percent of the Caracal members are women. While many troops see Caracal as a publicity stunt and a sop to the feminists, the unit has performed well, and has a reputation as a non-nonsense and reliable outfit.
During their independence war in 1948, Israel had female infantry units, but these were withdrawn. Not because the women couldn't fight, but because Arab units facing them became more fanatical, and less likely to surrender, when they realized they were fighting women. Conservative Jewish clergy in Israel want women to be barred from combat jobs, while Arab radicals are urging more women to get involved in terrorism operations, including suicide bombings.

Let's talk about non-combat areas that could be coed but aren't. Football, soccer, basketball, baseball, rugby, mixed martial arts. Why aren't these proffesional sports integrated? Here you have athletes, with excellent diets, plenty of rest, the best of training, and yet women do not compete with or against men. Now, put them in a combat infantry role. Bad diet, little rest, demanding physical activity and add to that actual fighting against other men.

Are there any combat experienced infantry soldiers from the current wars here on martial talk? What experiences have you had in the field and what do you think about this topic. what about combat experienced female soldiers, any thoughts on serving in infantry or armor?

Service in the armor branch requires a lot of heavy lifting, can women do that in a combat environment?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Let me first say I have no problem with it.

Having said that, I wonder if America is ready for it.

I think it's an interesting fantasy that would be abandoned by the American public the first time a woman on the front lines was captured, raped, and beheaded by the Taliban on TV.

 

[shesulsa]

Women have been dying from hands-on violence for a very, very long time. We are also, statistically (according to an Olympic shooting coach I recently met), better shooters and deal with combat better. I know there are many women who are ready to do it.

Why no f'n way?

 

[Big Don]

Women have been dying from hands-on violence for a very, very long time. We are also, statistically (according to an Olympic shooting coach I recently met), better shooters and deal with combat better. I know there are many women who are ready to do it.

Why no f'n way?

What I was told by several shooting instructors, it isn't that women are better than men, when properly instructed, it is that women and men that have never fired before have no bad habits to unlearn.
Honestly, it is a gut reaction, not something I can really define.

 

[Tez3]

We have women in the Royal Artillery, we have women in warships, we have female combat pilots. We've got female bomb disposal officers one of whom was killed not so long ago. women are in the Royal Engineers, the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers as well as the Royal Logistic Corps who all serve on the 'frontline'. the army's heavy artillery is 'manned' by women. Women have been in 14 Int working alongside male colleagues in Northern Ireland for many years in dangerous conditions.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...at-Taliban-deafening-noise-instead-bombs.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...posal-officer-who-lived-life-to-the-full.html

When people compare anything military to the Israelis they should remember that the Israelis are in a unique situation, they don't chose to have an army they don't chose to got to war, those choices are forced on them. The American and British military system is completely different both being professional forces made up of volunteers who are selected. Training is different, ethos is differnt in fact just about everything. the Israelis face annihilation everyday, and every man woman and child will fight when they have to, it isn't a career choice or something they fancy doing for a couple of years. Israelis have to defend themselves while trying to live as normal and good life as they can, everyone in Israel just about is a soldier when they need to be. Comparing whether women should be on the front line or not by using the Israelis isn't a good comparision, just living in Israel and being an Israeli means you are on the frontline anyway.

Professional female soldiers fit in with their male counterparts well, everyone said women would be pulled out as soon as the first female was killed, here that was several years ago and the women are still there. women have a job to do, they do it there's no problem unless someone from outside makes one. A woman captured and tortured by the enemy would receive the same attention or lack of it that a male soldier would to be honest.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Women have been dying from hands-on violence for a very, very long time. We are also, statistically (according to an Olympic shooting coach I recently met), better shooters and deal with combat better. I know there are many women who are ready to do it.

Why no f'n way?

I didn't say women were not ready to fight in combat or to face the dangers. I said the American public would freak right out the first time they saw an American woman beheaded on TV by the enemy, and that would be the end of that noble experiment. I have no doubts about the combat capability of women.

 

[Sukerkin]

My first reaction was "Who would broadcast such a thing?" closely followed by the thought that do do such a thing would be the worst mistake any enemy could make.

 

[elder999]

Do you have paperwork for that assertion elder?

Well, I'll try to find some, but don't really need any.

I mean, you do know that the Yom Kippur war was a surprise attack, right? That "the frontlines" just happened to be wherever you were standing when they started? Yes, as soon as they could feasibly do so, they evacuated women from the front lines, but there were women there, and a shortage of men at the time.

At least, that's the way my prom-date's mom, who was there, explained it to me three years later...:lol:

Let me first say I have no problem with it.

Having said that, I wonder if America is ready for it..

This, apparently. Shamefully, too, what with all the wondering if "women can do heavy lifting"-shades of "women can't be firefighters," and "women can't be cops"

EDIT: Here ya go, billi, from the Israeli Defense Forces Webpage:

during the Yom Kippur War (1973), due to a growing need for ground forces, women were needed in roles in the field. They served as combat instructors, operations sergeants, and even officers.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

My first reaction was "Who would broadcast such a thing?" closely followed by the thought that do do such a thing would be the worst mistake any enemy could make.

Our enemies being known for their clear and rational thinking, right?

 

[elder999]

Our enemies being known for their clear and rational thinking, right?

Not to mention some of their delightfully enlightened ideas about women.....

 

[ballen0351]

As a former primary marksmanship instructor on parris island in the Marine Corps i can say withoit a doubt woman are NOT better shooters then men. Thats a myth.we always had much higher % fail to qualify every week then men. Normally due to emotional stress. They shoot good all week until qualification day and boom they shoot like crapand alot of them would be on the firing line crying. I can say men were more likly to shoot themselves if they didnt qualify then the woman saw a few guys over the years i was there saw several guys kill themselves never a female. The females for most part would just freeze up and cry. As to the woman in combat i dont really have a problem with it so much. I have worked with many females in police work that i believe would do just as good as any man in combat. However they really are few and far between. I dont believe in lowering fitness standards for woman to do same job. If men need to do X amount of push ups then so do the woman ect. Most physical tests are different for men and woman for a reason

 

[Tez3]

Ballen I would suggest then that your recruiters are doing a poor job with the people they were allowing to enlist.

Just because the women you saw 'froze up' etc doesn't mean to say all women do, I've seen women shoot at Bisley and I watch women shoot in the Biathlon all the time, pretty good shooting under pressure. The military women as well as those from my service can all shoot perfectly well under pressure, as I'm sure can American policewomen. As you may have read on one of my links women can shoot the enemy even as a 'non combatant medic'. Labelling 'all women' is as silly as saying 'all men' can't do something just because they are men.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/michelle-mc-bravest-girl-in-the-army-7269711.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-awarded-Military-Cross-extreme-courage.html


This girl was regularly out on patrol with the Royal Marine Commandos. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/8382575.stm

The women who go out on patrol with the men carry the same weight as the men, the medics in fact carry more, they all carry their weapons too and do engage in the firefights. Only the female officer physical tests are different from the mens ( I don't know why!) but the standard of fitness for men and women in the British army are the same.

http://www.army.mod.uk/join/20153.aspx "The same fitness standards apply to both male and female soldiers."

I have to tell you as well the female Afghan police officers are pretty good now at shooting and they know pressures you'll not imagine.

 

[Cyriacus]

Ballen I would suggest then that your recruiters are doing a poor job with the people they were allowing to enlist.

Just because the women you saw 'froze up' etc doesn't mean to say all women do, I've seen women shoot at Bisley and I watch women shoot in the Biathlon all the time, pretty good shooting under pressure. The military women as well as those from my service can all shoot perfectly well under pressure, as I'm sure can American policewomen. As you may have read on one of my links women can shoot the enemy even as a 'non combatant medic'. Labelling 'all women' is as silly as saying 'all men' can't do something just because they are men.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/michelle-mc-bravest-girl-in-the-army-7269711.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-awarded-Military-Cross-extreme-courage.html


This girl was regularly out on patrol with the Royal Marine Commandos. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/8382575.stm

The women who go out on patrol with the men carry the same weight as the men, the medics in fact carry more, they all carry their weapons too and do engage in the firefights. Only the female officer physical tests are different from the mens ( I don't know why!) but the standard of fitness for men and women in the British army are the same.

http://www.army.mod.uk/join/20153.aspx "The same fitness standards apply to both male and female soldiers."

I have to tell you as well the female Afghan police officers are pretty good now at shooting and they know pressures you'll not imagine.

Im addressing the Bold.

Men freeze up as well. Its a whole lot less likely, but its the same for both sides. But it can be trained out of someone at relative ease. Especially in the Military. I dont see how its a problem.

 

[Tez3]

Im addressing the Bold.

Men freeze up as well. Its a whole lot less likely, but its the same for both sides. But it can be trained out of someone at relative ease. Especially in the Military. I dont see how its a problem.

Exactly, either they were poor recruits or there was some poor instruction somewhere. Sometimes in the rush to get numbers into the Forces recruiters don't always get the best recruits they could, they don't like to say to people 'no you aren't suitable'.

In the womens Biathlon the competitors often get more hits than their male counter parts, my other half who had a long career in the RAF Regt including instructing says it's because the women can regulate their breathing better, however this may be true or it could be his excuse for watching the women's chests rofl! Women tend to be the more accurate shots but are slower then men who can fire more shots in the same time. It depends I suppose why you are shooting, however the Biathlon does show that men and women can shoot under pressure.