Wing Chun

wckf92

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That makes sense. It seems to be a common method.

You listed "Turning stance work" and "Biu Sao drills" in your SLT drills list earlier in this thread, if you don't mind sharing, could you explain the purpose behind teaching those specific drills during the SLT phase of your curriculum?

Yeah this is an example of what I was referring to in my post. I.e...in my upbringing you learn turning aka "shifting" of the horse in your first week or so. Even though it is "technically speaking" not intro'd in a "form" until Chum kil/kiu. There are other examples but hopefully this helps illustrate my point.

Great topic! So good to see some life come back to this forum after long silences!
Honest curiosity, no criticism. I will be happy to go with private messaging on this as well :)
 

ShortBridge

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Yeah, if memory serves me right it was a retired Lt. Col. of the ... hmmm ...Airforce(?) --named Don Presto (?) from CA. A short athletic guy (hard to believe he was old enough to be retired) who IMHO seemed to really know his stuff. Anyway he was in town because his son was attending ASU in Tempe.

Wait... wait ...I found him- I love google! Check this out: Donald Presto | Instructors

Thanks. I trained with him once some years back. Good guy.

I have not used or seen that punching used in sparring, though we're from the same lineage. Honestly, it's still not on my list of things to try, but maybe this plants a seed.
 

wckf92

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Thanks. I trained with him once some years back. Good guy.

I have not used or seen that punching used in sparring, though we're from the same lineage. Honestly, it's still not on my list of things to try, but maybe this plants a seed.

I think maybe some look at it literally(?).
For example, that exercise or "drill" encompasses several things at once. It is training a low horse; and the 'arrow' punch, and the gwai ma (in the transition phase of the drill if you were trained the same as me). BUT, if you disect it from an applications point of view, the arrow punch mechanics are seen throughout the lineage, etc. See what I mean?

In other words, the push/pull nature of that "battle" punch (Geezers words, not mine) is just one small part of what is being trained.

Not sure I'm making sense but...
 

Danny T

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Terminology differences. No two lineages seem to use the same terms, whether in Cantonese, Mandarin, or English. I now see that you mean what we call "Chain Punching" (lin wan kuen) in my lineage. Yeah, that's a really important place to start.

The other punch (in the picture) is what we call the "arrow punch" or "battle punch". It's a sideways punch combined with lateral stepping, delivered from a deep horse stance and, in my lineage, is primarily used to train integration of body movement and stepping for the long pole. I did see a Duncan Leung lineage instructor demonstrate its use in sparring, but I'm not a big fan. If applied exactly as it's done in training, it is very committed and not as mobile as other options. It makes much more sense when holding a long pole.
Yep Lin Wan Choi or Kuen.
The Pole punch we call 'the pole punch' or the thrusting punch and we use it (I have heard is called the arrow punch as well). Not specifically as in the say ping die ma stance but it is use.
 

Danny T

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I started to answer this question and stopped, because I struggled a little bit with the openness of it, so no intent to criticize anyone else's answer, but I'm curious:



None of these things are expressed or implied in Si Lim Tao. I've trained in two lineages and the methods of bringing beginners along were different. The lineage I teach under does get people stepping, shifting, kicking, moving early in their their training, whereas my first one generally limited your training to correspond to the form you had been taught. I understand both perspectives, but how do you consider these things SLT drills?
I believe when one completes the system and understands 'all' of the implications we return to SLT. Why? Because everything is referenced in SLT.
Do you not move your feet when first getting into your stance and again when closing your stance in SLT? Some lineages use pivoting others use a circling movement. Both imply footwork as well as other things. Greater expressions are developed in other parts of the system but the implication is there even if it isn't directly shown as a specific step.
 

Danny T

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I like your drill approach instead of form approach.

People always like to ask, should one develop his

1. toolbox first? or
2. foundation first?

I prefer 1.

When I develop my

- toolbox, I can also develop my foundation at the same time.
- foundation, I may not know what tool that I'm trying to develop.
For me it depends on the students needs and how long will I have to train him/her for their goals.
A student who comes with no need for their skills immediately will be taught differently than an LEO or a security guard, or bouncer who may well be required to have a usable skill tonight.
 

wckf92

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I believe when one completes the system and understands 'all' of the implications we return to SLT. Why? Because everything is referenced in SLT.

Probably one of the most accurate and profound things ever stated on this forum. Well said my friend.
 

Callen

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Yeah this is an example of what I was referring to in my post. I.e...in my upbringing you learn turning aka "shifting" of the horse in your first week or so. Even though it is "technically speaking" not intro'd in a "form" until Chum kil/kiu. There are other examples but hopefully this helps illustrate my point.
Indeed it does, thanks for clarifying!

If a practitioner is learning SNT/SLT, I can see how your examples of training aspects of Chum Kiu are readying them for the next form... which makes sense. It's the drills perspective of this topic that I find more interesting.

For those who are using this style of curriculum for teaching, I'm really curious how drills that include concepts like Juen Mah and Biu Sau actually help a beginner who is just learning to grasp and understand SNT/SLT. What are the direct benefits from those specific drills, and how do those benefits translate back to SNT/SLT? I mean, if you're going to drill during the SNT/SLT "stage" then why not drill for concepts that are actually found in the first form. There are so many, yeah?

Again, genuinely curious :)



Great topic! So good to see some life come back to this forum after long silences!
I agree completely! I appreciate everyone's contribution to the community.
 

wckf92

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What are the direct benefits from those specific drills, and how do those benefits translate back to SNT/SLT? I mean, if you're going to drill during the SNT/SLT "stage" then why not drill for concepts that are actually found in the first form. There are so many, yeah?

Great follow up man. Thanks.
So, in general, to respond to your question: one of the reasons we are trained very early on in "advanced" methods is because these methods take a long time to learn/internalize in order to make use of them when SHTF. Does that make sense? Hopefully it does... thanks again!
 

ShortBridge

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I think maybe some look at it literally(?).
For example, that exercise or "drill" encompasses several things at once. It is training a low horse; and the 'arrow' punch, and the gwai ma (in the transition phase of the drill if you were trained the same as me). BUT, if you disect it from an applications point of view, the arrow punch mechanics are seen throughout the lineage, etc. See what I mean?

In other words, the push/pull nature of that "battle" punch (Geezers words, not mine) is just one small part of what is being trained.

Not sure I'm making sense but...

Sure, of course. But, we don't generally move around in horse stance and with a bladed lead with empty hands the way that we might with the gwan. I'm not judging, just saying, I've personally never practiced that from a "sparring" perspective.
 

Gerry Seymour

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When a new student comes to you, you don't have to teach him SNT right away. You can teach him how to

- punch,
- kick,
- move around,
- ...

When you start to teach SNT, that new student will have some foundation built up already.

I believe this is the right order of teaching?
That's my preferred order, though I've never really experienced the inverse, so maybe I just don't "get it". This is one of the things that intrigues me about systems like WC that seem to introduce the movement before the techniques that movement supports.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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That's my preferred order, though I've never really experienced the inverse, so maybe I just don't "get it". This is one of the things that intrigues me about systems like WC that seem to introduce the movement before the techniques that movement supports.
For striking art, the teacher should teach "power generation" before anything else.

From

static punch -> dynamic punch,

the footwork will be introduced.

How to block your opponent's punch, that should be the next step. IMO, this is a very natural way of MA learning.
 

Oily Dragon

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If applied exactly as it's done in training, it is very committed and not as mobile as other options. It makes much more sense when holding a long pole.

If it's done exactly as in training, it will never work in combat, because they are not the same thing, obviously.

It's also important to note the cultural significances of the vertical fist in the "arrow" formation in the stock image. There are practical, historical, and elemental considerations to consider.

I get your point about long poles, and concur.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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the cultural significances of the vertical fist ...
The purpose of the horizontal fist are:

1. Use arm rotation to generate more power (like bullet comes out of a gun).
2. When you rotate your arm, you can use your arm to bounce away your opponent's punching arm. Your rotation punch will serve for both defense and offense.
 

Oily Dragon

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The purpose of the horizontal fist are:

1. Use arm rotation to generate more power (like bullet comes out of a gun).
2. When you rotate your arm, you can use your arm to bounce away your opponent's punching arm. Your rotation punch will serve for both defense and offense.

There's a lot more to it than that. .

We should move more slowly, before the Fire element comes into play. Otherwise, things could get dicey fast.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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There's a lot more to it than that. .

We should move more slowly, before the Fire element comes into play. Otherwise, things could get dicey fast.
Agree that sun (vertical) punch is safer. Your elbow will have less chance to be cracked. It also faster if you throw chain punches.
 

geezer

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They don't call it the "sun character" fist for nothing.

Honestly, in our lineage we keep it simple and call things by simple names, whether using English or Cantonese terms. No mysticism or flowery descriptions. the "sun character thrusting punch" or Yat Gee Chung Kuen is called that simply because the vertical fist resembles the Chinese character for "sun" ().

The "arrow punch" name is equally simple and descriptive, especially as we do it: Using vertical fists with one arm outstretched laterally while the other is drawn back to the center of the chest. As the name implies, it resembles an archer drawing a bow.

04_Photo_Credit_Bowmanship.com_.jpg
 
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