Wing Chun vs. Jun Fan Kung-Fu

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by Cthulhu

However, Bob Wall and others tell of an account where Bruce did fight one of the challengers. He utterly humiliated the guy...kicking his *** while telling him how he was kicking his ***. Afterwards, the defeated challenger went back about his business a wee bit bloodied.
Cthulhu

LOL thats gotta hurt more than bruce's kicks and punches.

 

[Kirk]

. It wasn't 30 feet, though, or anywhere near it. I believe
that particular kick is what ended up in the movie, so you can see
that for yourself.

30 feet was what was stated in "Curse", by the producer. That's
what I was refering to. They showed the kick in the movie also,
and yep, it didn't look like 30 feet at all.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Kirk

30 feet was what was stated in "Curse", by the producer. That's
what I was refering to. They showed the kick in the movie also,
and yep, it didn't look like 30 feet at all.

'Curse' may be a good introductory bio for Bruce, but again, I was just disappointed by it. Some good stuff, but not enough for me to recommend it to anybody.

I've found the best bio on Bruce to be "Bruce Lee: Fighting Spirit", by Bruce Thomas. The only downside to that book is, unlike the other Lee bios, it has no pictures at all, if I remember correctly. However, most of the pictures seen in the other bios are pretty familiar to anyone who has read anything about Lee.

I've e-mailed A&E to see if a copy of their original Biography show on Lee exists. No response yet.

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk
Nevertheless, it's impressive as all heck that he was kickin' butt so well without finishing his WC training.

I agree! Of course he also had his boxing. Still, I hadn't realized to what extent he had to innovate--I assumed that he had had the whole Wing Chun system.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by arnisador



I agree! Of course he also had his boxing. Still, I hadn't realized to what extent he had to innovate--I assumed that he had had the whole Wing Chun system.

Maybe, but I don't think he had extensive boxing training while he lived in Hong Kong. I've only seen an account of one competition he had been in, which he won. I've yet to see any mention of bouts before or after.

He had some exposure to Tai Chi, from his father. His older brother, Peter, was also a fairly good fencer. I don't think he started doing serious analysis of boxing until he came to the U.S.

Cthulhu

 

[tmanifold]

According to Williem Cheung, one of the reasons Bruce experiemented so much was that he couldn't beat Cheung when they sparred. This drove Bruce nuts. Anybody who has seen any footage of bruce can tell he is a wee bit arrogant (not that it is that bad. To do what he did he kind of had to be). His inability to beat chueng and the fact that he did not have the complete system (or the real style) drove Bruce to compensate with what he picked up along the way.

Tony

 

[DireWolf]

I used to have that WC\JKD a comparison book. Probably still do if I was to look hard for it. Samurai sums it up nicely. The Wing Chun that W Cheung does is certainly demonstrative of only his style of WC, and Ted Wong fairly represents his style of JKD.

For an accurate comparison I'd advise a friendly crossing of hands with a practitioner of the other style. Some of the stuff that W Cheung does in that book makes me cringe...not a good representation of WC by and large. And his bit in the book where he shows how "modified" WC's tan sao fails where his "traditional" works is an absolute joke.

But worth a read.

 

[arnisador]

The WC/JKD comparison book has been discussed on this board before and if I recall correctly others also felt that WC was not fairly represented.

I always thought of WC as a stand-in-one-place style, but as I've learned more I see WC practitioners moving around a lot.

 

[Samurai]

Many people look at Wing Chun as a static method of fighting due to the first form. In Sil Lum Tao there is no footwork (other then assuming the first stance). This is the picture most people have of WC.

It is sort of intresting to note that Bruce Lee still taught Sil Lum Tao in Oakland, Seattle, and L.A. I guess he found merit in the form even as Jeet Kune Do was taking shape.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

 

[arnisador]

Now that you mention it I'm sure that's why I have had that impression.

 

[tilsonsifu]

Direwolf I would encourage you to go, since you are in Aust, to GM Cheungs school and trade hands with Dana Wong and see if his Tan Sao fails. IMHO taking 'typing shots' and a Wing Chun Grandmaster that studied directly with Yip Man shows very poor character.

Regards

 

[DireWolf]

Thanks for the reply, tilsonsifu. I would invite you to view the book in question and form your own opinions. In the book W Cheung is showing how a "modified" WC tan sao fails. Unfortunately the attack he defends against would never be intercepted with a tan sao, as it is coming in from almost ninety degrees to the side of the defender. Seeing as a tan sao extends forward along the centerline it makes about as much sense to use one in that situation as using a tor sao to block a descending hammerfist.

In regards to Dana Wong I have devoured and studied any article I have come across with him in. I have nothing but the greatest respect for the man. And I doubt that he would try and tan the attack in question. But as I said, read the book and draw your own conclusions.

IMHO taking 'typing shots' and a Wing Chun Grandmaster that studied directly with Yip Man shows very poor character.

I assume by 'typing shots' you mean criticising something I don't believe in? Perhaps my character would be poorer if I saw the example in question and said nothing out of respect for a man whose claims I do not respect. Far be it from me to insult anyone for their opinions, but perhaps it would be better if you researched the topic first? After reading the book please feel free to contact me and let me know how you went.

Peace

DW :asian:

 

[theneuhauser]

dire wolf,



that quote at the bottom of your posts is hilarious, where did it come from?

 

[DireWolf]

Yeah it made me crack up when I read it too. I actually found it on a humour thread about eight months ago on Kung Fu Magazine Online forums. That's all I could remember of it...I'm sure there was more.

:yinyang:

 

[tilsonsifu]

Once again, Direwolf, please don't attack what you have been exposed to. I do have the book. This is ONE (p.89) of Traditional Wing Chun ways of handling the situation. This is a very basic, low level, requirement. With further study of the Sil Lum Tao form and the correct Chum Kil footwork this might make more since to you. If you have a chance to visit GM Cheungs school and study with Sifu Wong you would see and understand the footwork behind the principle of the Tan Sao in this situation. From the pictures I can see how it might be confusing. It is hard to see the full tan sao application for the situation in a couple of snap shots. Talk to your sifu and have him explain to you how to move your feet correctly maintain a centerline tan sao with an instant counter strike.

I didn't mean to sound rude in the last reply. If I did I apologize. That was not my intent. We are all Wing Chun brothers. I have just studied other systems of Wing Chun for years and GM Cheungs system, that I study now, just makes more since. The footwork really supports the system. Try it and see.

Thanks

 

[DireWolf]

Cheers mate. I will definately have a look at W Cheung's Wing Chun at some point in the future and I am always willing to keep the cup at least mostly empty.

Thanks for the clarification. All the best with your training,

DW

 

[CHUNNER]

To answer the original question, It depends on the Instructor. I am a Wing Chun Sifu from a WT background and I have recently trained a little with Rick Young and I have attended a Dan Inasanto seminar. I must say that what they are teaching as Jun Fan and what I was taught and teach as Wing Chun are very similar. I have on the other hand seen Wing Chun that bears very little resemblance to Jun Fan.

In summary, The Jun Fan/Wing Chun comparrison comes down like so many things in the Martialk arts, It depends on the person teaching it and their personal experiences in the arts.

Regards,

Chunner

 

[jongman]

To answer a point made previously about tan sao and centerline - if the attack was coming from the side then the centerline just needs to be turned to face it. This is very easy with 'traditional' wing chun footwork which steps rather than pivots, and is one of the basic techniques taught in the first few month's training. tan sao as practised in SLT form teaches to face the point of contact - once applied with footwork that point could be anywhere in 180 degrees.
The neautral stance used in SLT is also the exact position of the feet in a front fighting stance, with the guard moved to the centerline, as opposed to the CENTRAL line that is used in the fighting stance.

 

[TargetAlex]

Hi guys. Earlier in the thread you were discussing whether or not Bruce knew the second form of Wing Chun, Chum Kil.

When I was training with Patrick Strong, he told us that Bruce had taught him both Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kil, and that it was a regular part of the Seattle curriculum.

Cheers,
Alex

 

[Cthulhu]

My first posting in this thread does state that Bruce Lee learned the first two empty-hand forms, which would be Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kil.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by TargetAlex

Hi guys. Earlier in the thread you were discussing whether or not Bruce knew the second form of Wing Chun, Chum Kil.

When I was training with Patrick Strong, he told us that Bruce had taught him both Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kil, and that it was a regular part of the Seattle curriculum.

Cheers,
Alex