Wing Chun Ranking

[Spartan]

Does Wing Chun follow a rank/ sash system like other types of kung fu?

Spartan

 

[KamonGuy2]

Yes in several ways. Many schools have a grading system (Kamon, James Sinclair, etc). In Kamon it is Yellow 1, Yellow 2, Red 1, Red 2, Green 1, Green 2 (senior level), Brown 1, Brown 2, Black 1-4

The Kamon gradings are few, which means students don't have to fork out hundreds of pounds a year, whilst still maintaining standards

More generally, you can attain ranks such as Sihing (junior instructor/older brother), Dai Sihing (senior instructor) , Sifu (master/father) etc

There are many variations between different federations

In Kamon, Kevin Chan is only called Sifu, despite being one of the best wing chun practitioners around

Why were you asking friend?

 

[brocklee]

Yeah,

Sifu or

not Sifu

lol the kwoon I attend doesn't seem to have a ranking system. My first WC class gave us a hay bail string to wear around our waist. The student that was there the longest tended to have the darkest string.

It was to my understanding that belts or sashes weren't given out because WC was designed to be mastered after only 6 or 7 years and because martial arts we're outlawed during that dynasty, so everything needed to be kept on the DL. I'm sure its different per lineage.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Yeah but grades can be important. In Kamon we have 45 classes in London. That means if a student walks in from another class, the only way I can tell what level he is training at is by their sash.

Alternatively you could ask them what level they are but it would take forever for them to explain what they know

I find gradings also help encourage students to progress. If you don't have gradings, you will never know quite how good you are (you could chi sao with one person and be better than them, and then chi sao with another and be worse)

Some schools like Ip Chun's are 'wander in' kind of schools that many masters go and visit. At places like Kamon, it is more of a formatted structured class.

I think it might be a western thing

 

[Spartan]

I was just curious - I'm more familiar with the Japanese ranking systems.

One side note: I've seen various wing chun practitioners at very high ranks and they all seem to be wearing a different sash color. If I'm correct, I thought I've seen pictures of William Cheung wearing a red sash.

Also, I've heard that a white sash is the highest rank that one can receive in this system and that master Yip Man was the only one to have ever held this rank. Could someone set me straight on this matter?

Spartan

 

[CheukMo]

I was just curious - I'm more familiar with the Japanese ranking systems.

One side note: I've seen various wing chun practitioners at very high ranks and they all seem to be wearing a different sash color. If I'm correct, I thought I've seen pictures of William Cheung wearing a red sash.

Also, I've heard that a white sash is the highest rank that one can receive in this system and that master Yip Man was the only one to have ever held this rank. Could someone set me straight on this matter?

Spartan

As far as I know, Wing Chun had no sash system in Yip Man's time. There were si-hing, si-bak, si-je (etc.) and sifu. The ranking systems of today are used for various reasons as stated by Kamon Guy and brocklee. As far as William Cheung's red sash, it doesn't matter as he has his own school of which he is the "Grandmaster". There are many who call themselves "grandmaster", but I didn't think it possible to have more than one grandmaster. I'm not knocking anyone in particular, but I think one who is completely adept in WC and satisfied with his students referring to him as sifu is the real master.

 

[brocklee]

As far as I know, Wing Chun had no sash system in Yip Man's time. There were si-hing, si-bak, si-je (etc.) and sifu. The ranking systems of today are used for various reasons as stated by Kamon Guy and brocklee. As far as William Cheung's red sash, it doesn't matter as he has his own school of which he is the "Grandmaster". There are many who call themselves "grandmaster", but I didn't think it possible to have more than one grandmaster. I'm not knocking anyone in particular, but I think one who is completely adept in WC and satisfied with his students referring to him as sifu is the real master.

My sifu has spoken of a sash dealing with Ip Man's time. It was the sash that was worn either around the arm or the leg (can't quite remember) at a ceremony held for Ip Man by his students upon his passing. I cant remember the colors but I believe his closest students wore either white or black sashes. Then someone arrived wearing the same color sash as his closest disciples and they ripped it off his arm/leg. He left and returned wearing a different color....anyone else know of a similar event?

 

[KamonGuy2]

As far as William Cheung's red sash, it doesn't matter as he has his own school of which he is the "Grandmaster". There are many who call themselves "grandmaster", but I didn't think it possible to have more than one grandmaster. I'm not knocking anyone in particular, but I think one who is completely adept in WC and satisfied with his students referring to him as sifu is the real master.

I thought that for a while but then I realised that technically Grandmaster is just another rank.

In Kamon, Sifu Kevin Chan is very humble and has only ever been called a master. He is well above this rank. And how you can see it is that the people who are under him are easily masters themselves

If you run an organisation where your students have become Masters, you should by definition be a Grandmaster

Another way of thinking is that titles are given. Like the title of Professor.
Sifu has been called a Master by many of his peers including Ip Chun, Geoff Thompson, Gracies, etc and is still very humble about the whole affair. He is happy just to be called Sifu

Many other federations like Cheungs use complete and utter nonsense to fool students into thinking they are some grand organisation.

Cheungs wing chun is okay, don't get me wrong, but his past actions and comments have ripped apart wing chun (in a bad way)

 

[CheukMo]

I thought that for a while but then I realised that technically Grandmaster is just another rank.

In Kamon, Sifu Kevin Chan is very humble and has only ever been called a master. He is well above this rank. And how you can see it is that the people who are under him are easily masters themselves.

If you run an organisation where your students have become Masters, you should by definition be a Grandmaster

Another way of thinking is that titles are given. Like the title of Professor.
Sifu has been called a Master by many of his peers including Ip Chun, Geoff Thompson, Gracies, etc and is still very humble about the whole affair. He is happy just to be called Sifu

Then to me, Sifu Chan would be, in a way, a master. Humility with confidence is a sign of what I would term a "master". I think some "schools" of WC/WT/VT have ranks that in Cantonese reflect more on the traditional Chinese way, but can't be translated well into English.

Many other federations like Cheungs use complete and utter nonsense to fool students into thinking they are some grand organisation.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Cheungs wing chun is okay, don't get me wrong, but his past actions and comments have ripped apart wing chun (in a bad way)

I agree with that as well. William Cheung's system is very different from Yip Man's teachings as taught by most of his other students. Most other styles that are an evolution (or devolution depending on your point of view) of WC by the Yip Man lineage change the name to reflect that. Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Gung Fu (not JKD) is one example. Yes, Yip Man taught many students over a long period of time and each would have seen a different picture of the Yip Man WC system. However, I doubt Yip Man would have took the time to teach William Cheung a completely different system that the rest of his students, such as his early-senior systems or his sons Yip Chun and Yip Ching.

 

[Spartan]

So you all feel William Cheung's story is a big hoax?

How different is William Cheung's system from other systems?

Is it just as or less effective than those other systems?


Spartan

 

[CheukMo]

So you all feel William Cheung's story is a big hoax?

I do. He basicly states that Yip (Ip) Man taught a different or "wrong" version of Wing Chun for his entire teaching years. He says only when he (William Cheung) became a senior student and assistant instructor did Yip Man teach him (and only him) the "true" and "traditional" Wing Chun.

How different is William Cheung's system from other systems?

Stances are different. His focus is different.

Is it just as or less effective than those other systems?


Spartan

I don't know if it is more or less effective than that of other styles or branches of Wing Chun as I haven't studied it, nor experienced enough of it to say. There are many schools of WC/WT/VT and many have a different focus than others and will concentrate on some things more than others but few claim to have been the only one who knows "true" Wing Chun.

 

[KamonGuy2]

So you all feel William Cheung's story is a big hoax?

How different is William Cheung's system from other systems?

Is it just as or less effective than those other systems?

Spartan

I believe he trained under Yip Man and had involvement with many fine martial artists (Bruce Lee, etc), but his claims that he was the only one ever to be taught the true third form disgusts me.
The only reason to say that is to cash in.

His fight with Emin Bosteppi really put things into perspective.

 

[Spartan]

Could you elaborate on what happened in this fight?

 

[KamonGuy2]

You haven't seen it? It's all over the web!!
Basically Emin wasn't happy with what Cheung had been saying (about Cheung being the only one who knew th true third form and wing chun etc). Emin went to his school (I think it might have been a seminar) and asked Cheung for a fight. Cheung agreed.

Emin grabbed Cheung and threw him to the floor in a side mount. He then hit him repeatedly. Cheung blocked a few but got hit.

Students of Cheung had to pull Emin off of him.

I have a dvd with it all on. It's hilarious. Not the best fight in the world but Emin got the job done (which was to show Cheung that he wasn't the best in the world)

 

[CheukMo]

This is supposed to be the fight. I can't make either face out very well though. http://www.ebmas.net/video/emin-vs-cheung.mpeg

 

[KamonGuy2]

Unfortunately my computer at work blocks vids. If you live in the UK Cheuk I can send you a copy of my DVD. It is quite funny - it has a northern guy commentating on the fight.

There was apparently a similar confrontation (although I don't think it got physical) between Benny Meng and Alan Orr

 

[bcbernam777]

So you all feel William Cheung's story is a big hoax?

Whatever WC does say should be understood in this context. WC is a very smart business man, and as such does tend to embellish certain stories, he is to a certain degree quite an arrogant man, and partakes in a lot of self agrandising talk so as to increase his public profile, so that he can increase his marketability to attract more students. His flare for the dramatic has quite often landed him in hot water, in particular his claims that YM named him as the succesor of the YMWC system. A claim that he tries to back up with the fact that he alone was taught "classical" Wing Chun by YM, whereas the other students where taught the modified system of Wing Chun. This had created a rift between the Ving Tsun association and himself and had resulted in a letter from former students of YM man denoucing his claims. Certainly when you look at the time frame that he actually spent with Sigung then some holes do appear in his story, certainly in the time he was with YM he had learnt WC but to learn a suposed second system of WC does seem to be improbable.

How different is William Cheung's system from other systems??

The main differences as far as I can tell are in footwork and delivery, but these can be explained in interpretative differences and not a whole new style. However I have never studied under WC so I cannot give a definitive answer on that.

Is it just as or less effective than those other systems?
Spartan

That is a matter of interpretation, certainly from what I have seen of WC's style, it appears to me to contain more complex actions, at the end of the day, there is no style that is more or less effective than another, it comes down to the fighter, his ability to synthsize the art, his understanding and most importantly his dedication to the way of fighting. Certainly with my Sifu I have found his particular flavour of Wing chun, more effective than other peoples, this however has little to do, I believe with the science that he teaches, but in the mode of delivery of the teaching, I was taught one on one, by Sifu himself, and therefore was privy to a higher level of training than others who have learnt in a classroom situation, there are those who have been taught by WC privatly and are as you would expect very effective fighters than others taught in a classroom situation. All martial arts have and effectiveness to them, it doesn't matter if it is karate, Tai Chi, Tae Kwon Do, BJJ etc etc. There is an effectivenss to them all, it is whether that effectiveness is utilised by the student or not.

In answer to your original question, it depends on who you are taught WC by as to whether or not there is a ranking system. Certainly many of the larger schools do have some form of ranking system involved, usually built around the 6 forms of WC with another 1 or 2 ranks for Teaching level. However some schools exsist that have no formalised ranking structure, they simply build the foundation of the Sui Lum Tao, progress to (usually the Chum Kui) and move on from there, with no formalised ranking at all, they simply require that you can perform the necessary skills before moving into deeper levels of teaching. For example, the reson that the Sui Lum Tao is taught firstly is that it is the foundation, the key development for the necessary Sui Lum Tao energy which is the fundamental building block or the engine that makes Wing Chun run effectvly.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

This has been discussed before in this forum.

The Wing Chun ranking systems are arbitrary and used by individual instructors.

The Ving Tsun Athletic Association adopted one similar to the new Wu Shu rankings, with separations coming from the different forms, similar to the following:

Level 1: Sil Lum Tao and applications
Level 2: Chum Kiu and Applications
Level 3: Fist half of the dummy and applications
Level 4: Bil Jee and Applications
Level 5: second half of the dummy and applications
Level 6: 6 1/2 pt. pole and applications
Level 7: Bart Cham dao and applications
Level 8: Honorary for high levels and time instructing about 15 to 20 years.
Level 9: Similar to level 8, except teaching and training for 35 to 30 years or more.

you can look it up on their site.

Ok. I looked it up and here it is:

The Full Instructor certificate and the Levels 7 and 8 post-graduate certificates can only be issued by the VTAA. The Level 7 certificate has to be examined and certified by our approved instructor with 15 years of teaching experience. The Level 8 certificate has to be examined and certified by our approved instructor with 20 years of teaching experience.
The minimum examination requirements for the Levels 1 to 8 Rank certificates (including our honorary certificates) are as follows:

• Level 1 or Siu Nim Tau certificate (Junior Practitioner)
  • Siu Nim Tau (1st Form)
  • Single Hand Chi Sau
• Level 2 or Chum Kiu certificate (Intermediate Practitioner)
  • Chum Kiu(2nd Form)
  • Double Hand Chi Sau (basic Lok Sau or Pon Sau)
• Level 3 or Chi Sau certificate (Advanced Practitioner)
  • Advanced Double Hand Chi Sau
  • Kua Sau (Free-style)
• Level 4 or Wooden Dummy certificate (Apprentice Instructor)
  • The first half of Wooden Dummy Form (about 60 movements)
• Level 5 or Biu Jee certificate (Assistant Instructor)
  • Biu Jee (3rd Form)
  • According to the curriculum requirements, individual instructors can re-schedule the Biu Jee Form to Level 4 and the Wooden Dummy Form to the Level 5.
• Level 6 or Wooden Dummy certificate (Full Instructor)
  • The complete set of the Wooden Dummy Form
  • Kicking Techniques
  • Advanced Footwork
  • Holders of the Level 6 certificate can apply to the VTAA for Full Instructor Certificate subject to the fulfillment of the minimum training period of 5 years.

Oh well, my memory is not that bad!!

These are only general guidelines, and they are certificates, not ranking per se.

enjoy!

Juan M. Mercado

 

[KamonGuy2]

Hold the phone!!!!!!

That is a VT ranking system and one of about a million different ranking systems.

In some WC schools (like Kamon) non-hand forms are taught at the end of the system (when you are actually good enough to do them)

I am not overly impressed by VT - I train with two of their guys in other arts, and their wing chun is poor. They claim to have been doing it for 8 years and are not very good fighters

 

[bcbernam777]

Hold the phone!!!!!!

That is a VT ranking system and one of about a million different ranking systems.

In some WC schools (like Kamon) non-hand forms are taught at the end of the system (when you are actually good enough to do them)

I am not overly impressed by VT - I train with two of their guys in other arts, and their wing chun is poor. They claim to have been doing it for 8 years and are not very good fighters

Out of interest what are the circumstances they train in, what is their lineage and how far down are they (without naming specific names), I had someone come out of a particular school that was descended from Choy Sheung Ting. He had been training for 6 years, I had been training for 12 months under sifu Fung, and his Wing Chun was nowhere as good as Mine HOWEVER he was trained by an instructor who had about 2 instructors under him and he trainined within a classroom environment, where as I trained personally with Sifu one on one. The point is this, at the end it did not come down to the individual system as such but the conditions that he had been taught under. I think you will find that there are good and bad students under every flavour of Wing Chun.