Wing Chun Punch (foundational vs boundary)

[lansao]

Sharing a few thoughts on educational benefits of Wing Chun punching outside of the direct benefits it offers. In addition to being effective in terms of mobility, incorporating deflection, and generating decent power, the punch is also an excellent teaching instrument for beginners looking to learn how to draw a straight line to their target.

I found it to be a great starting point for learning how to incorporate forearm/deltoid rotation.

 

[ShortBridge]

Interesting ideas, thanks for sharing.

 

[lansao]

A few additional thoughts/examples.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can "crack" your opponent's right punching arm by using your

- right hand to push on his wrist joint to your left,
- left hand to push his elbow joint to your right.

The

- vertical fist has advantage that your elbow will not be cracked.
- horizontal fist has advantage of more power, but your elbow have risk to be cracked.

It's a trade off between speed/safety and power/risky.

 

[lansao]

You can "crack" your opponent's right punching arm by using your

- right hand to push on his wrist joint to your left,
- left hand to push his elbow joint to your right.

The

- vertical fist has advantage that your elbow will not be cracked.
- horizontal fist has advantage of more power, but your elbow have risk to be cracked.

It's a trade off between speed/safety and power/risky.

Totally appreciate trade-offs. The point I’m trying to make is that direct application benefits of the punch aside, it’s also a helpful learning device for applying other elements.

In terms of cracking the elbow, isn’t a vertical fist also susceptible with upward and downward force?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In terms of cracking the elbow, isn’t a vertical fist also susceptible with upward and downward force?

The vertical fist with downward elbow can get away from the elbow cracking. The WC Bong Shou that you expose your elbow joint to your opponent can also have the similar issue.

 

[Martial D]

A few additional thoughts/examples.

There are two reasons I don't like to rotate my punches over with bare fists.

Firstly, You don't get the low elbow power. The closer to the center of mass your elbow is at impact, the more mass you can drive it with. There are of course stylistic exceptions to the latter point, such as if your power comes from body rotation, IE swinging it like a bat on a circular line, but thats not too applicable to(most at least) styles of WC.

Secondly, it's much easier to break your hand or injure your wrist if you over rotate. This is not so much the case with boxing gloves of course, but that's a whole different animal.


Edit - after I posted a third reason occurred to me. Rising power. Two of the most valuable things I got from my WC were the concepts of rising power and sinking power. Sinking power is something that is more situational for me, but all of my straight shots draw from rising power, ie, slightly coiled legs and torso that combine with the hip rotation and arm movement to generate more force. If you rotate you break the line of power from the ground.

Ill whip up a quick video to demonstrate what I mean.

Second edit -

 

[lansao]

There are two reasons I don't like to rotate my punches over with bare fists.

Firstly, You don't get the low elbow power. The closer to the center of mass your elbow is at impact, the more mass you can drive it with. There are of course stylistic exceptions to the latter point, such as if your power comes from body rotation, IE swinging it like a bat on a circular line, but thats not too applicable to(most at least) styles of WC.

Secondly, it's much easier to break your hand or injure your wrist if you over rotate. This is not so much the case with boxing gloves of course, but that's a whole different animal.


Edit - after I posted a third reason occurred to me. Rising power. Two of the most valuable things I got from my WC were the concepts of rising power and sinking power. Sinking power is something that is more situational for me, but all of my straight shots draw from rising power, ie, slightly coiled legs and torso that combine with the hip rotation and arm movement to generate more force. If you rotate you break the line of power from the ground.

Ill whip up a quick video to demonstrate what I mean.

Second edit -

Cool, interesting observations. Not why I punch with the elbow down, but good to see other people’s thoughts.

The point I mean to make here is that by starting with the wing chun punch, you learn a fundamental component of many other jabs and can pickup a large number of different styles quickly.

I don’t mean to argue mechanics so much as say we don’t have to limit ourselves to it, it opens us up to more possibilities.

 

[Martial D]

Cool, interesting observations. Not why I punch with the elbow down, but good to see other people’s thoughts.

The point I mean to make here is that by starting with the wing chun punch, you learn a fundamental component of many other jabs and can pickup a large number of different styles quickly.

I don’t mean to argue mechanics so much as say we don’t have to limit ourselves to it, it opens us up to more possibilities.

Hmm. Just out of curiosity have you trained in other styles? WC is VERY different than say, boxing in where the power comes from. The WC 'power engine' isnt too adaptable to other techniques. It's like windows 10, completely proprietary

This isn't to say you can't gain insight into other styles through WC, but I think to do that you need to train in those styles first, at least a little, to know what you are working with.

 

[lansao]

Hmm. Just out of curiosity have you trained in other styles? WC is VERY different than say, boxing in where the power comes from. The WC 'power engine' isnt too adaptable to other techniques. It's like windows 10, completely proprietary

This isn't to say you can't gain insight into other styles through WC, but I think to do that you need to train in those styles first, at least a little, to know what you are working with.

Wing Chun was my first

That said, I think we practice different versions of Wing Chun.

 

[Martial D]

Wing Chun was my first

That said, I think we practice different versions of Wing Chun.

Oh we definitely do! I posted what my traditional SLT looks like in that other thread. My lineage comes through Sam Kwok, 2 steps off, and the Sifus down to me definitely added their own touches. What's your lineage?

Not to mention Ive been binning it all and rebuilding it from the ground up through MMA training and hard pressure testing. My WC doesn't really look like anyone's WC anymore, although the guys over at Alan Orr's school are doing something similar only on a much much higher level.

I'll tell you one thing though that ive learned, and this is applicable even if your only goal is to understand your own WC as well as you possibly can; Go try other things, even in small doses. You'll find yourself getting lightbulbs going off about your own WC you would otherwise never see.

 

[lansao]

Wing Chun was my first

That said, I think we practice different versions of Wing Chun.

Realize you didn’t ask if I trained other arts before WC but if I’ve trained other arts.

I’ve received instruction in boxing and Dutch Muay Thai subsequently. That’s in part where the connection came from. I haven’t practiced rising in any of them (sinking slightly come to think of it). Something like hip rotation of lead foot on ball from super stance with core rotation driving elbow out from the lat extending fully and retracting back from the strike.

 

[Martial D]

Realize you didn’t ask if I trained other arts before WC but if I’ve trained other arts.

I’ve received instruction in boxing and Dutch Muay Thai subsequently. That’s in part where the connection came from. I haven’t practiced rising in any of them (sinking slightly come to think of it). Something like hip rotation of lead foot on ball from super stance with core rotation driving elbow out from the lat extending fully and retracting back from the strike.

Ahh. I guess I misunderstood.

 

[lansao]

Oh we definitely do! I posted what my traditional SLT looks like in that other thread. My lineage comes through Sam Kwok, 2 steps off, and the Sifus down to me definitely added their own touches. What's your lineage?

Not to mention Ive been binning it all and rebuilding it from the ground up through MMA training and hard pressure testing. My WC doesn't really look like anyone's WC anymore, although the guys over at Alan Orr's school are doing something similar only on a much much higher level.

I'll tell you one thing though that ive learned, and this is applicable even if your only goal is to understand your own WC as well as you possibly can; Go try other things, even in small doses. You'll find yourself getting lightbulbs going off about your own WC you would otherwise never see.

I studied/study under Sifu John Wahnish, he studied with SiGung Philip Holder, he studied under William Cheung and Moy Yat but left both to start his school (Ying Gi Ga WC) in the states back in the 80s.

Excited to see them both next week.

 

[lansao]

Ahh. I guess I misunderstood.

I misunderstood first lol.

 

[Martial D]

Realize you didn’t ask if I trained other arts before WC but if I’ve trained other arts.

I’ve received instruction in boxing and Dutch Muay Thai subsequently. That’s in part where the connection came from. I haven’t practiced rising in any of them (sinking slightly come to think of it). Something like hip rotation of lead foot on ball from super stance with core rotation driving elbow out from the lat extending fully and retracting back from the strike.

Ya, the only place I've gotten the concept of rising power was from my WC. boxing has a sort of 'rising power' too but the the uppercut is a whole different animal.

 

[Martial D]

I studied/study under Sifu John Wahnish, he studied with SiGung Philip Holder, he studied under William Cheung and Moy Yat but left both to start his school (Ying Gi Ga WC) in the states back in the 80s.

Excited to see them both next week.

Ya. I kinda thought you were a cheunger

 

[lansao]

Ya. I kinda thought you were a cheunger

I also take my coffee black.

 

[lansao]

I also take my coffee black.

Although I’ll say I’ve seen Cheung lineage stuff and it seems pretty different from what I’ve practice.

SiGung really did modify the hell out of the art and took what he liked from both teachers.

 

[lansao]

Ya. I kinda thought you were a cheunger

I haven’t heard that term before but is that a deal breaker for you?

Really don’t put much stock in lineage but have learned a lot from the system I study, have a lot more to learn and practice, and have a lot of respect for my instructors.

They’ve also always said that what we study is different not better, and that we should never limit ourselves to what they teach. To go out and spar with people from different arts or I won’t trust my kung fu. They’ve also both treated the schools as passions and not direct sources of income.

Understand exactly what the reasons are for why we do the things we do. In the case of bare-knuckle punching, they shared three reasons which rung true to me initially and rung louder with time and practice:

- Lowered elbow creates an angle of deflection for simultaneous defense/attack.
- Bottom three knuckles align with the forearm “pipe” naturally and is well supported.
- Bottom three knuckles avoid injury to higher priority pointer finger knuckles.

I’ve since added the additional thoughts I’ve shared above plus a few other thoughts to support teaching but the core reasons they shared still resonate well with me.

I don’t dig very deeply into lineage because I’m not a historian and ultimately, outside of occasional helpful context for application intent behind movement, it doesn’t make me a better fighter.