Wing Chun & Jeet Kune Do

[KPM]

Here is the interview with Guru Dan Inosanto that was referenced couple of times on other thread. Good explanation of the relationship between Wing Chun and JKD:

 

[wingchun100]

Thanks for finding it.

 

[kakkattekoi]

thank you!

Sent from my 404SH using Tapatalk

 

[Juany118]

Here is the interview with Guru Dan Inosanto that was referenced couple of times on other thread. Good explanation of the relationship between Wing Chun and JKD:

Thanks for posting indeed.

This, in reality, is the one I was referencing in the other thread (but didn't review myself), if it wasn't the one @wingchun100 was referencing, my bad.

I think this also sets up a good place for me to explain in detail (sorry long explanation inc because I have thought about this video since I discovered it sometime ago and given it A LOT of thought due to my respect for Guro Dan.)

It's really the part where Guro Dan starts demonstrating that confused the hell out of me, more than the statements. That demo where he says the bridging is what JKD changed. I was like... "ummm every WC system I know has kicks to permit for bridging before you enter optimal hand striking range. Am I missing something?" This confused me even more than others maybe for a specific reason. I study both WC and Kali. It is a like a romantic triangle in a bad soap opera where I love Kali a little bit more, and my Kali is Inosanto Kali, so in being confused I felt like I was questioning the man who created the MA I "click" best with and thus the Guro/Sifu I have the utmost respect for.

That specific part of the video is actually what made me ask what I said in the other thread "maybe that's why Sigung Cheung put kicks into the CK and BG forms?" In terms of the basic 3 empty hand TWC forms there are only a few differences, when you consider each has (if I remember right) 108 movements per form. To my knowledge of Yip Man lineage (which personal experience is admittedly limited to TWC and WSL via Sifu gary Lam's system), there are no kicks until you get to the Mook Jong forms outside of TWC.

Now I do not know, specifically, how Yip Man trained his students obviously BUT traditionally in CMA's your use of techniques in training often mirrors the stage you are at in terms of forms. So if you haven't had kicking in your forms, you don't have kicking in your drills for application. Since Bruce Lee never progressed beyond CK, this is why I say "maybe this is why Bruce felt that WC had absolutely no, nada, zilch, nyet, nein, bu, outside game in WC?"

"Stock" YM WC forms don't have kicks until the mook jong forms (again to my experience and research, I might be wrong, please correct me if I am.) This isn't to say that JKD doesn't have "more" of a long game because it allows you to stand "outside" of the "gates" we establish for the first time when we perform SLT. My belief is simply that one having "more" doesn't mean the other has "absolutely none".

For reference the CK and then BJ forms of TWC, as I am one of only a few on these forums that apparently has direct study of it, I wanted to post these video so one could see the difference. There are differences, more "stepping" than pivoting or shuffling etc, but overall the biggest difference is the earlier integration (in terms of the forms alone) of kicking, besides how we open the form and don't go "toes in" of course.

CK Master Keith Mazza

BG Sigung Willaim Cheung

 

[Hazardi172]

To my knowledge of Yip Man lineage (which personal experience is admittedly limited to TWC and WSL via Sifu gary Lam's system), there are no kicks until you get to the Mook Jong forms outside of TWC.

What made you think this?

 

[Juany118]

What made you think this?

I am talking the SLT, CM and BG forms specifically. I can pull up videos of the remaining Yips and WSL himself if needed. Bruce stopped his study under YM and was off to America when he started the CM form. If there is an empty hand form (not drill, form), before the mook, that I am unaware of please enlighten me.

 

[Juany118]

I am talking the SLT, CM and BG forms specifically. I can pull up videos of the remaining Yips and WSL himself if needed. Bruce stopped his study under YM and was off to America when he started the CM form. If there is an empty hand form (not drill, form), before the mook, that I am unaware of please enlighten me.

Late edit CK, not CM

 

[KPM]

It's really the part where Guro Dan starts demonstrating that confused the hell out of me, more than the statements. That demo where he says the bridging is what JKD changed. I was like... "ummm every WC system I know has kicks to permit for bridging before you enter optimal hand striking range. Am I missing something?"

----This was formally produced film. It was very likely edited down from a lot more footage of Guru Inosanto demonstrating. So he may have elaborated more on that point and it didn't make it into the final cut. All I can say is that from my experience with JKD, what is different is the extent of bridging used and the explicit "outside game" that is taught. JKD assumes that you are starting at long range, have to manage at long range, and then close in continue the fight. There is plenty of angular footwork to stay at long range if you choose, there are long range kicks if you choose to use them, and there are very specific ways to "close the gap" that Wing Chun simply does not have. Too often Wing Chun seems to assume you will stand in your ready stance and just wait for the opponent to attack and come into close range. But, as I said before, TWC is the exception to this because TWC does have more footwork and bridging at long range than other Wing Chun. And I think that is by design....William Cheung put it there.



To my kno.wledge of Yip Man lineage (which personal experience is admittedly limited to TWC and WSL via Sifu gary Lam's system), there are no kicks until you get to the Mook Jong forms outside of TWC

---No. Most Ip Man Wing Chun I have seen has kicks in the Chum Kiu form. And when I was studying it, kicks were taught in training drills even prior to the CK form.


Since Bruce Lee never progressed beyond CK, this is why I say "maybe this is why Bruce felt that WC had absolutely no, nada, zilch, nyet, nein, bu, outside game in WC?"

---Bruce progressed beyond the CK form and learned the first 4 or 5 sections of the dummy form, including the section that introduces kicks.


This isn't to say that JKD doesn't have "more" of a long game because it allows you to stand "outside" of the "gates" we establish for the first time when we perform SLT. My belief is simply that one having "more" doesn't mean the other has "absolutely none".

---Like I said, your primary reference is TWC. It has more of an outside game than most. If Gary Lam Wing Chun also includes something of an outside game, it may be because Sifu Lam has developed it himself. After all, the WSLVT guys are very fond of pointing out to us that SIfu Lam has changed his Wing Chun.

---A real "outside game" allows you to stay and fight at the outside ranges if you so choose. Most Wing Chun kicks are designed to be delivered at closer range. A good outside game gives you options for controlling the distance and bridging the gap in various ways. If your primary strategy at long range is to stand and wait for the opponent to close with you, or to simply use a step-slide footwork to step into the opponent waiting to draw a response that you can then defend and work at close range....then this isn't really an "outside game." It is simply a way to transition to the "inside game". This is what I have seen from most Ip Man lineages. Heck, I have to admit that this is true of the Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun that I study as well. And, BTW, I have studied TWC in the past as well under John Clayton. I learned SLT, CK, and BJ. Didn't learn the dummy or the weapons from him though.

---Here is Ip Chun doing the Chum Kiu form with kicks:

 

[wingchun100]

Thanks for posting indeed.

This, in reality, is the one I was referencing in the other thread (but didn't review myself), if it wasn't the one @wingchun100 was referencing, my bad.

I think this also sets up a good place for me to explain in detail (sorry long explanation inc because I have thought about this video since I discovered it sometime ago and given it A LOT of thought due to my respect for Guro Dan.)

It's really the part where Guro Dan starts demonstrating that confused the hell out of me, more than the statements. That demo where he says the bridging is what JKD changed. I was like... "ummm every WC system I know has kicks to permit for bridging before you enter optimal hand striking range. Am I missing something?" This confused me even more than others maybe for a specific reason. I study both WC and Kali. It is a like a romantic triangle in a bad soap opera where I love Kali a little bit more, and my Kali is Inosanto Kali, so in being confused I felt like I was questioning the man who created the MA I "click" best with and thus the Guro/Sifu I have the utmost respect for.

That specific part of the video is actually what made me ask what I said in the other thread "maybe that's why Sigung Cheung put kicks into the CK and BG forms?" In terms of the basic 3 empty hand TWC forms there are only a few differences, when you consider each has (if I remember right) 108 movements per form. To my knowledge of Yip Man lineage (which personal experience is admittedly limited to TWC and WSL via Sifu gary Lam's system), there are no kicks until you get to the Mook Jong forms outside of TWC.

Now I do not know, specifically, how Yip Man trained his students obviously BUT traditionally in CMA's your use of techniques in training often mirrors the stage you are at in terms of forms. So if you haven't had kicking in your forms, you don't have kicking in your drills for application. Since Bruce Lee never progressed beyond CK, this is why I say "maybe this is why Bruce felt that WC had absolutely no, nada, zilch, nyet, nein, bu, outside game in WC?"

"Stock" YM WC forms don't have kicks until the mook jong forms (again to my experience and research, I might be wrong, please correct me if I am.) This isn't to say that JKD doesn't have "more" of a long game because it allows you to stand "outside" of the "gates" we establish for the first time when we perform SLT. My belief is simply that one having "more" doesn't mean the other has "absolutely none".

For reference the CK and then BJ forms of TWC, as I am one of only a few on these forums that apparently has direct study of it, I wanted to post these video so one could see the difference. There are differences, more "stepping" than pivoting or shuffling etc, but overall the biggest difference is the earlier integration (in terms of the forms alone) of kicking, besides how we open the form and don't go "toes in" of course.

CK Master Keith Mazza

BG Sigung Willaim Cheung

Ip Man had kicks in Chum Kiu. If you see the footage they took of him only a short time before he died, he had kicks in there.

 

[Juany118]

Ip Man had kicks in Chum Kiu. If you see the footage they took of him only a short time before he died, he had kicks in there.

Okay (to both you and @KPM ). My mistake on that one then. As I said I don't have issue with someone pointing out a factual error.

Also thanks on the mook info. Everything I have read about Bruce said he stopped studying under YM and moved during CK.

I guess I just had the weird fortune to study the two WC Lineages claiming YM descent that look at the outside game as not just a place to bridge from but a place to fight from if you absolutely have to. The goal still is to "get in there" but sometimes you can't because in a fight the only truly known quantity is you.

 

[wingchun100]

Okay (to both you and @KPM ). My mistake on that one then. As I said I don't have issue with someone pointing out a factual error.

Also thanks on the mook info. Everything I have read about Bruce said he stopped studying under YM and moved during CK.

I guess I just had the weird fortune to study the two WC Lineages claiming YM descent that look at the outside game as not just a place to bridge from but a place to fight from if you absolutely have to. The goal still is to "get in there" but sometimes you can't because in a fight the only truly known quantity is you.

My previous Sifu was a student under Ip Ching. I met the man a couple times, which was awesome. At any rate, I guess when Bruce went back to China, he did get some of the dummy form, but not all of it. Judging by some things he did, I don't believe he finished CK or the dummy form.

 

[KPM]

My previous Sifu was a student under Ip Ching. I met the man a couple times, which was awesome. At any rate, I guess when Bruce went back to China, he did get some of the dummy form, but not all of it. Judging by some things he did, I don't believe he finished CK or the dummy form.

He didn't finish the dummy form. But he finished Chum Kiu. And remember, his Sifu was Ip Man, but his main teachers were two very prominent Wing Chun Masters.....William Cheung and Wong Shun Leung. He remained in contact and friends with both of them after he left Hong Kong.

 

[Juany118]

He didn't finish the dummy form. But he finished Chum Kiu. And remember, his Sifu was Ip Man, but his main teachers were two very prominent Wing Chun Masters.....William Cheung and Wong Shun Leung. He remained in contact and friends with both of them after he left Hong Kong.

Not saying you aren't correct but there are clearly contradictory sources of info on this point. It seems Sigung Cheung will be visiting the "Mother School" this year and for some time staying with my Sifu's Sifu while doing so. Since that's only a 40 minute drive from my school. I might see if I can find the opportunity to ask some questions and get answers from "the horses mouth" so to speak.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ Sounds good! Where will your Sigung be holding seminars in the US? And when?

 

[Juany118]

^^^^ Sounds good! Where will your Sigung be holding seminars in the US? And when?

When isn't 100% locked in yet, at least to my knowledge. As my Sifu said predicting when Sigung Cheung arrives can be like predicting Santa Claus. That said one of his stops is almost always the US Headquarters for TWC in New Jersey Traditional Wing Chun KungFu North American Headquarters

PS as soon as I get more details I'll PM ya

 

[Hazardi172]

I am talking the SLT, CM and BG forms specifically. I can pull up videos of the remaining Yips and WSL himself if needed. Bruce stopped his study under YM and was off to America when he started the CM form. If there is an empty hand form (not drill, form), before the mook, that I am unaware of please enlighten me.

Different reaction here when I pointed out that CK has kicks and when others did same is funny. It seems you are determined not to agree with me on anything, yes?

 

[KPM]

Different reaction here when I pointed out that CK has kicks and when others did same is funny. It seems you are determined not to agree with me on anything, yes?

Actually, what you said here was:

What made you think this?

That is not the same thing as actually stating that in WSLVT you have kicks in the Chum Kiu form. So I think we can cut Juany some slack for not reacting to what you posted.

 

[Juany118]

Actually, what you said here was:

What made you think this?

That is not the same thing as actually stating that in WSLVT you have kicks in the Chum Kiu form. So I think we can cut Juany some slack for not reacting to what you posted.

Well since I have another person on ignore it will be even harder for me to react.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As my Sifu said predicting when Sigung Cheung arrives can be like predicting Santa Claus.

So ... December 25th then?

 

[Juany118]

So ... December 25th then?

but do you know whose house he is going to hit first