Wing Chun and MMA

[mook jong man]

Yeah thats kinda my point.



But not as good as trained people. Which is kinda my point.

I think people forget that punching someone in the throat and punching someone in the face are really the same thing: a punch. So those that say theres no point to training to punch to the throat are basically saying theres no point to training the accuracy of your punch. Which I completely disagree with.

Kicking to the groin is the same. Its harder to kick someone in the groin than it is to kick the shin of their forward leg, yet we Chunners practice the mid heel kick a lot. Any thug can kick you in the shin, so whats the point of training? That argument just doesnt work for me. I train to be better at striking the sensitive center line of my opponent, its that simple. The more you train the more accurate you get. Any noob can throw a punch yes, but not all of them can consistently punch many times a second and accurately strike the adams apple, while not taking any incoming hits.

That is an extremely good point , its a bit like saying because I can cook scrambled eggs that I'm in the same league as cooking like Gordon Ramsay.

Anybody can throw a punch , a kick , or strike someones neck with the edge of your Tan Sau.

But to fully utilise your body mass and transmit it into the target , with no wasted movement along with all the speed developed from years of practice , that requires a great deal of dedication and proper training.

Getting a Tan Sau in the throat is not going to feel the same as getting it from a novice as it is compared to say someone who has been practicing Bil Gee for a few years and can send a fully concentrated force out through their fingertips.

Like wise with a kick I can take a very big athletic guy off the street teach him the stance , teach him the low heel kick in five minutes.

Even though he maybe bigger and more athletic than me his kick will not have the same power and penetration as mine because I have learnt to apply my stance when executing a strike so that most of my body mass goes into the strike and is not wasted in other directions.

 

[Poor Uke]

[**shivers at memory of liver being hit**]

As mentioned this is an old debate. Personally i have been poked in the eye whilst sparring and managed to continue. Have also had a few kicks to the groin (which incidentally are pretty easy to aviod) with only once being incapacited enough to stop sparring (balls of steel ).

I do think though that a good shot to the Adam's apple and its game over, unless you are a serious nutcase, in which case you were alway dooooomed.

Alot of people say that such strikes are low percentage shots....mmmm maybe.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Okay let's put some perspective on this...

Grappling when done in practice is usually playing under some kind of rules. If it didnt, training partners would soon disappear through injury or not wanting to train. Yet most grapplers know how to incapacitate an opponent and prevent 'cheap shots'. Certainly many of the grapplers I have trained with are very knowledgable of dangers and gaps.

Of course if someone tried to a technique that was cumbersome or long winded, it would certainly allow opponents time to try something dirty

But if you asked a BJJ blue belt or above to go at you, no holes barred, they would make it very difficult for their opponents to come up with pokes to the eyes etc

In the same veign it is like doing a drill slowly with a beginner and they catch you with a fast hit or something. In reality you wouldnt even allow the hit to get close, but for the sake of training you can't just go bereserk on your opponent

There is a distinction in MMA/cagefighting between sport and reality. The punishment that MMA guys go through is very similar to that in a street confrontation, but there is still a major difference

In the street, your opponent can do ANYTHING. Even an unskilled opponent can catch you out no matter how good you are. The point is that an MMA guy will often use common sense in a real fight (what works and what doesnt). They can be just as dirty if needbe

Wing chun certainly does go for weak areas (as opposed to using blunt force trauma to get the job done), yet I wouldn’t agree that it specializes in this. Other arts do it just as well – karate, mantis and tiger crane kung fu, etc

My advice to most grapplers is to look at striking arts because if you are hitting your opponent whilst in a clinch, they aren’t going to be looking for a cheap shot lol

 

[BloodMoney]

Getting a Tan Sau in the throat is not going to feel the same as getting it from a novice as it is compared to say someone who has been practicing Bil Gee for a few years and can send a fully concentrated force out through their fingertips.

Like wise with a kick I can take a very big athletic guy off the street teach him the stance , teach him the low heel kick in five minutes.

Even though he maybe bigger and more athletic than me his kick will not have the same power and penetration as mine because I have learnt to apply my stance when executing a strike so that most of my body mass goes into the strike and is not wasted in other directions.

Yep spot on, absolutely agreed

Okay let's put some perspective on this...

Grappling when done in practice is usually playing under some kind of rules. If it didnt, training partners would soon disappear through injury or not wanting to train. Yet most grapplers know how to incapacitate an opponent and prevent 'cheap shots'. Certainly many of the grapplers I have trained with are very knowledgable of dangers and gaps.

Yup thats a good point actually, and while I agree I think not all grapplers are like that, many only drill sport stuff and actually have little or no idea what to do if someone sticks their thumb up their **** to counter a triangle choke In a perfect world all grappling instructors would add a little "but on the street someone could do this" disclaimer, but ive found very few do (esp in BJJ). Many boxers train to fight southpaws, but still have trouble when they come up against one, as its unfamiliar. A grappler might know the gaps and dangers, but when one happens it could still be unfamiliar to him and catch him out. Thats the importance of drilling what you want to use. I hear heaps of people say "well we drill this but on the street id do it different" and im like "well why dont you just drill it that way?" Your teaching your body and muscle memory how to act, so if you just roll sports BJJ all the time guess what, it will become ingrained in you and you will instinctively act the way you have conditioned yourself to act.

So yeah, in my opinion there are exactly 31 differences between Wing Chun and MMA

UFC Rules

1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Without being able to do number 22 I literally dont know if I would be alive today

 

[Steve]

How do you guys train those 31 things?

 

[geezer]

Psychological fear is actually a form of paranoia, and it's created by one's internal fears of inadequacy on either a physical, emotional, or mental level. When a male (in particular) thinks himself to be inadequate there is a strong feeling of sadness and anger. ​

Man! With my A.D.D. tendencies having to wade through a post this long, dense, and single spaced... causes me to experience a sensation of inadequacy leading to a strong feeling of... dang! what was I saying?

Anyway I think you have a point. But athleticism is only part of the picture. I'm currently a good deal more "athletic" than my instructor, but he can mop the floor with me. And when you say a base in stand-up, clinch, and ground, I assume you don't mean the same kind of "base" for everybody. For example, some people think that all stand-up should be based on boxing or Muay Thai type movements. A WC/WT/VT base is a very different animal... but it works very well! That said, it's great to have your input and experience presented here, Matt.​

 

[mook jong man]

How do you guys train those 31 things?

I don't train all of those things , but quite a few of them we do.

1. Head Butt - we practice head butts with head gear on each other , and on a heavy bag on the floor.
2. Eye Gouging - If we are just practicing flicks to the eyeballs we use eye protection , mainly we use them as a facial control to force the head back out of alignment with the spine to aid in take down , in that case we just use slow controlled pressure into the eye sockets and under the nose.
3. Biting - We use that in a chain of techniques such as eye gouging , ear ripping , we just bite enough so that it pinches the skin through the clothing , one has to avoid getting blood in the mouth with the risk of blood borne diseases.
4. Hair Pulling - Not so much , these days with short hairstyles you can't always depend on hair being there , but I have been known to take people down to the floor from Chi Sau by piercing through with my Tan Sau and grabbing the back of their hair and pulling them down to the floor as a take down.
5. Fishhooking - Don't do that , don't want to put my hands in someones mouth.
6. Groin attacks - We put a groin protector on that I have reinforced with a lot more extra padding than it was originally designed for . We practice controlled striking on that.

9. Striking the spine or back of the head - We use a controlled Fook sau that we drop down on the upper back for training , but in reality it would be at the base of the skull , we also practice the strike on a kick shield.

10. Striking down using point of elbow - we practice that with control on each other , and also with one person squatting down with a kick shield on the shoulder and partner striking down with elbow strike to simulate tackle attempt. On the ground we practice it on heavy bag on the floor.

11. Throat strikes - we practice with control on each other from Chi sau , pulling the strike short or making contact with slow control and use power on focus mitts or wooden dummy if available , if on the ground using something like a C- grip we just squeeze the throat with great control until the person taps

12. Clawing ,pinching or twisting flesh - pinching or twisting flesh we just take it to the point where the person taps , usually on the torso like love handles and rib cage or back of thigh.

13. Kicking , kneeing , stomping opponent - we will simulate this on the partner pulling the strike short , for power we will use a kick shield or the very useful heavy bag on the floor , its usually a couple of chain punches from a knee ride position then disengage from the floor bag with a stamp kick to the chest area .

These are pretty much most of the things we work on in our ground fighting , while we cannot simulate things 100 percent we go as close as we can to realistic training without injuring each other .

 

[BloodMoney]

How do you guys train those 31 things?

Very carefully

Seriously though, yes we do, see Mook Jong Man's post above, cause we basically do the exact same.

Also a low heel kick , particularly one aimed directly below the knee cap and slightly to the inside of the shin , well that is instant sharp , walking into the edge of a coffee table type pain.

that cracked me up because thats literally the exact same analogy ive been using for years to describe low heel kicks. Awesome.