Who's Who & What style of "modern" are you?

gmunoz

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Just wanted to get this thing going and find out who is out there that is considered "modern"? I realize Hayes sensei and To-Shin Do as well as RTMS is considered "modern", but what other ninjutsu modern styles are out there? Who are you and what style is it? Please elaborate.
 
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Genin Andrew

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I have to say the new construction of the ninjutsu forum is quite good and i appreciate the moderators trying to eliminate the controversy that exists within ninjutsu and its practitioners.

However sadly ninjutsu will always be a controversial subject and history and lineage and so on will never be black and white.It cant really be boiled down to modern and traditional...

I dont want to get defensive but Ninjukai Taijutsu was practiced in the 1920's and was started well before that. Does that make it modern? It was brought to Australia in the late 70's but has no links to the Bujinkan,Genbukan or Jinenkan and obviously was unknown to Toshitsugu Takamatsu.

Because there are no historical records (because most history was written by the Samurai) except a few that rest with those affiliated with the Togakure-Ryu tradition and the Ninja museum. Does this mean that other ninja arts never existed,no other style was saved past WW2? this is an example of one on many issues that has been and will be debated for a long time.

Cheers to controversy...so long as its kept respectable.

much respect
-andrew
 
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gmunoz

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Andrew,

I agree with the fact that no matter what, Ninjutsu can't simply be divided up between the X-cans and the "modern." However, I can appreciate the moderators attempt at minimizing the confrontations that have appeared for whatever reasons. Hopefully this will help. Ninjukai? From the 20's? hmm.
Who is the grandmaster and how do you train?
 

Don Roley

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Genin Andrew said:
I dont want to get defensive but Ninjukai Taijutsu was practiced in the 1920's and was started well before that.

If that really was the case, there should be sources in Japanese and sources that can back up this claim that don't rely on the word of the Ninjukai but could instead be independently confirmed. There is none. There is no more proof that ninjukai existed in Japan or was started by a Japanese than there is for Ashida Kim's claims. Another member of your school (Questions) tried to say there was a dojo started in Kyoto in 1953 and still open. When I pressed for an address or proof he dodged the question and then stopped posting.

And we are not talking about some obscure 14th century work, we are talking about claims of existing in the 20th century! Stories about how the samurai surpressed the ninja and rewrote history are not even remotely vaild.

Sorry guy but there is no proof to the Ninjukai claims prior to John Ang's arrival in Australia that seems to be independently provable. If there is, then let me know.
 
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Genin Andrew

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Gmunoz, I can also appreciate what the moderators have done,sorry if my last post sounded a little negative that wasnt my intention.There was much controversy brewing as well as being vented and its good to see the moderators have done something about it and minimised the problem.

How do we train?
The grandmaster of Ninjukai in Australia is Shihan John Ang,he is a great man and all students of the dojo hold great respect for him. The standard class goes as follows...

To start we have a formal bow,followed by that we have a 5-10 minute meditation session to find ourselves and settle our breathing before training.

Next we practice breakfalls as a group,side,back and front.
After breakfalls we are broken up into groups of rank ie. all yellow belts together etc. And depending on the amount of people we usually have at minimum 2 instructors train with us.We simply continue going through the syllabus we are currently studying.strikes,rolls,blocks,locks,throws, etc.

After our training session the group forms back together for a final formal bow and dismissal bow. However that is just the physical training,Shihan also holds meditation classes which i enjoy going to,it shows a different aspect to the art and gives you a chance to understand and get to know Shihan and have discussions.

Hope this answers a few questions,i dont mind going into further detail if you are interested.

much respect
-andrew
 
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Genin Andrew

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Don Roley,

First i will ask that you don't use Ashida Kim's name in reference to Ninjukai,i understand you were using ashida as an example and can understand why you would but i did find it a little disrespectfull (not trying to be funny either) i love a good ashida kim joke as much as anyone.

Second when i said "most history was written by the Samurai" i worded that badly and put it into a bad context. I mean to say that the Samurai wrote much of ancient Japanese history in regard to 'warfare' and 'combat' methods and philosophies.And i meant to imply that the Ninja didn't keep alot of recorded history,compared to the Samurai. That is still worded badly but i hope it makes more sense than the last attempt and you can see where i'm coming from.

I am not "Questions" nor do i know the guy. Now he stated that there is an existing Dojo for "Ninjukai Taijutsu" in Kyoto,Japan. He said that it still exists today.That is not true at all and i dont know where he got that information from, i remember he also gave you names of a couple of books which have reference to Ninjukai which i am also unaware of and no one at the Hombu Dojo in Perth knows anything of the sought either.So i dont know what his sources were/are.

Shihan John Ang learnt the style of Ninjukai through Akito Yashida,Akito learnt it through Jushin Oshima who opened the first school in 1924. Now before i go further, John Ang has never once claimed to teach Ninjutsu,the style he teaches is a style that which he says was the fighting styles of the Japanese Yamabushi in which he was once taught.

The belief of the art's history doesn't run through everyone in the organization simply because not everyone cares about the history,they study the art because of its great techniques and practicality.I am different I am big on History and unfortunately i dont have any rock hard evidence that will satisfy you only the words that i have heard from John Ang and other higher members in the Dojo.However i will do my best to provide you with some information...

After the War many Dojos,buildings,temples and the like were destroyed,including the so called Dojo for Ninjukai (i know that sounds conveniant for my side of the argument) and as you know martial arts of most kinds were banned and some styles were almost lost completely.Jushin Oshima was a naval captain and towards the end of the war he decided to save the art and took it to Malaysia where it found its new base.

I have seen photos of John Ang during his training with a few others in Ninjukai Taijutsu and they are in the Hombu Dojo in Perth.There is also an outside pic of an old dojo (not sure if it is in Japan or not) but i would say no its the one that was in Malaysia. Now when i first started Ninjukai i too questioned the history and the techniques,and thought John Ang could have easily moulded a few arts together to create Ninjukai because of his extensive Martial arts background. The weapons used could have come from a karate background also such as the katana,tanto,sai,kama and Bo's. But then theres also Kyoketsu-Shogei,Kusari-Fundo,Kusari-Gama, Shuko and Shuriken. Some of those weapons were strictly used by the Ninja.The stances used in Ninjukai are also very similiar to Ninjutsu as well as walking and movement styles such as Yoko aruki and Nuki ashi.

You could say that John Ang read a few Ninjutsu books then made up some techniques for the weapons and bang! there you have a shuriken throwing ninja!And i also thought about this theory and the legitimacy with John Ang and his art.But i have seen Ninjukai in action and it is far too well created to be made up from thin air or a few books.The techniques have great practicality and are very fluent in movement. Nothing like the karate i have previously trained with.The 'yin' side of the art is also very well taught and practiced and students can gain good spiritual concepts and theories that can be applied to the taijutsu side of Ninjukai.

I'm not sure why Shihan Ang doesn't paste his old photos on the website or writes a book about the art,There is also some very old Kanji scripts in the dojo that make references to "ninja" but again this could have been "created".I personally believe in the art for what it is.And Don i'm not trying to convince you because all i can provide you with is 'words' from myself and others i have no solid evidence that backs up anything i say,so in that regard you have every right not to believe in the art or anything to do with John Ang and Ninjukai.

I believe in Ninjukai as much as i do the Togakure-Ryu Ninjutsu Tradition but because i have no evidence or historical backing i am fighting a losing battle.
I could ramble on and on and defend the art more and more but i have better things to do as do you Don,i appreciate it if you took the time to read this much so i wont test you're patience any further:) ...

We have debated all this in the past and i'm sure there will be further debate,but from my side it is pointless so that is why i will respect you're decision not to accept the art as a TRUE ninja fighting art.And i wont try to convince you further.I just want to learn from people like you and develop my knowledge of the Ninja.I look forward to joining the Bujinkan next year to compare styles and see what Ninjutsu is compared to Ninjukai Taijutsu.

much respect
-andrew
 

Don Roley

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Andrew,
Everything you have said has been said by every fraud's followers out there. There is no evidence you can point me to that I can check on my own. Period. you feel it is too gret an art to be made up- guess what? The followers of every fraud I know feel the same way- even the guys doing stuff so silly that we all sit around and laugh at them.

Short part of the story, I see no evidence that the art existed prior to John Ang and there is no source in Japan that backs up what should be known here. The supposed founder was not exactly low profile. There should be some sort of mention, but there is not.

Again, there is no more proof for your Art's claims that there is for Ashida Kim's. You may scream over the comparison, but you have no right to cast stones at him in your position.

And if you really did not want to start a debate over this, you should not have stated as a fact that your art was formulated in the 1920s and existed prior to that.
 

Enson

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what an interesting twist on this site! i think its great!

anyway there are some others that claim taijutsu as their art and do not carry the name ninjutsu. i remember that we had a couple of discussions before on their websites. i guess they would be considered modern. i would really like to have a couple of them on this site to see what their style is all about. i think some had joined at some point but got rejected from the start so they bailed.

ninjukai if established officially in the 20's imo would be considered modern. i think modern is when you take a traditional concept and make it practicle for today's application. its the "law of the lid"! to take something and make it better by continuing learning new applications and new techniques. though your art will always be founded in ninjutsu, there is modern day application. skh speaks of this in his books. remember, "if you are not learning... you are not leading". (john maxwell) i think your shihan should write a book. at least get something published about your art/style.
peace
 

In-Yo

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Sorry a bit off topic here,
I may be wrong but I thought the tekagi/shuko were secret weapons/tools of the togakure ryu. If thats correct why is it that ninjukai and other styles teach these ninja weapons within their own systems. Is it because they are a cool ninja weapon or that the Togakure weren't that good at keeping secrets? Just a point thats been gnawing at me.
 

Enson

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In-Yo said:
Sorry a bit off topic here,
I may be wrong but I thought the tekagi/shuko were secret weapons/tools of the togakure ryu. If thats correct why is it that ninjukai and other styles teach these ninja weapons within their own systems. Is it because they are a cool ninja weapon or that the Togakure weren't that good at keeping secrets? Just a point thats been gnawing at me.
this should be under weapons thread.
 
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Genin Andrew

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In-Yo,

i have posted a small response to your question under the "ninja weapons" thread so check it out there.However that is just from my perspective,it will be good to get a Bujinkan member to give the Togakure-Ryu side to it.

thanks.
 

Kreth

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In-Yo said:
Sorry a bit off topic here,
I may be wrong but I thought the tekagi/shuko were secret weapons/tools of the togakure ryu. If thats correct why is it that ninjukai and other styles teach these ninja weapons within their own systems.
Short answer, because they were in Hayes' books during the ninja boom...

Jeff
 
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BoneBreaker

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gmunoz said:
Just wanted to get this thing going and find out who is out there that is considered "modern"? I realize Hayes sensei and To-Shin Do as well as RTMS is considered "modern", but what other ninjutsu modern styles are out there? Who are you and what style is it? Please elaborate.
Koga Ryu a "system of many styles"? Because fighting is like chaos and no one style is for all situations and opponents. Thus, we seek to specialize in the chaos; the goal being that no matter the situation, we have a goal instead of a way. Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact. From a more scientific standpoint aggression is an instinct, aggression will discharge eventually even in the absence of "legitimate" cause. Thus all efforts at eliminating the causes of aggression can be seen in scientific terms as inherently doomed efforts to prevent a instinctual discharge by means of eliminating its typical stimuli. Skill in aggression will be needed from time to time, especially by those lacking skill and will. The solution is to ground aggression in a ritual expression that also prepares it for functional application.

It is a "system" because we have developed our functional Ritual expressions through imparting certain knowledge of physics, understandings, ancient methods, skills, attributes and techniques towards specific goals through simplicity, repetition and harder contact. The process of learning in Koga Ryu develops powerful understandings and skills for dealing with people even outside of a fighting context. Every day working towards Harmony of body, mind and spirit . It is "alive" with transformations constantly evolving with time. That makes it modern in its applications and philosophy using Mixed Martial Arts as it's basis, My path/method is Koga Ryu.
 
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Genin Andrew

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...ahem.

Bonebreaker, who is your teacher? what school are you apart of and what makes it "koga-ryu"?. Just as a warning be very clear and careful about what you say...Its just that most people are under the impression that Koga Ryu ninjutsu is not practiced today, it left the world with Fujita Saiko (depending on your beliefs).

your response will be interesting.

much respect
-andrew
 
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BoneBreaker

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Genin Andrew said:
...ahem.

Bonebreaker, who is your teacher? what school are you apart of and what makes it "koga-ryu"?. Just as a warning be very clear and careful about what you say...Its just that most people are under the impression that Koga Ryu ninjutsu is not practiced today, it left the world with Fujita Saiko (depending on your beliefs).

your response will be interesting.

much respect
-andrew
I currently study traditional Kung Fu under Sifu David Garcia.
 

sojobow

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BoneBreaker said:
Koga Ryu a "system of many styles"? Because fighting is like chaos and no one style is for all situations and opponents. Thus, we seek to specialize in the chaos; the goal being that no matter the situation, we have a goal instead of a way. Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact. From a more scientific standpoint aggression is an instinct, aggression will discharge eventually even in the absence of "legitimate" cause. Thus all efforts at eliminating the causes of aggression can be seen in scientific terms as inherently doomed efforts to prevent a instinctual discharge by means of eliminating its typical stimuli. Skill in aggression will be needed from time to time, especially by those lacking skill and will.
Salute:

I took the liberty of presenting your thoughts here to my own Forum at:

http://www.frankdux.com/duxforum/viewthread.php?tid=1265&page=1#pid20470

I did this because I wanted to hear the opinions of other MA'st devoted to a Koga / MMA System. Aggression is a subject (legitimate as it may be) that few students openly consider "expecially by those lacking skill and will" as you state. However, I'd like to find out if this is actually true. Is Aggression frowned upon by those because of a lacking of skill and will? On a 50/50 basis thus far, half the members believe that Aggression may not be warranted or usefull in trainings as one member stated: how can I train if I am always injured in training. Or, it's (aggression) a dishonorable attitude for one to have and use against his training partners (paraphrases). Those that agree seem to believe that, without Aggression, you aren't really training or to be successfull in life, you must train as you fight.

Personally, I agree with you. However, I'd add one additional attribute: One must train with an "attitude." How we develope the correct "attitude" is now a question drawn from your post and something I personally must take note of in my own training. I have been assisted in this "Attitude" adjustment by member(s) of a Sulsa/Hwa Rang do.

An example I see constantly is what a Jury is shown by the prosecution during a murder trial. As a jury usually is not "de-sensitized" the horrific display of the dead will usually help the prosecution. The Defense will actually want to show the pictures excessively in hope of "de-sensitizing the Jury.

Another example: I was involved recently in a grappling match. My fellow student and opponent used a technique of pressing the sharpest point of his elbow into my throat. This was effective as the pain and thought of this attack to this vital part of my body actually took my mind off of his true motive of an armbar which was actually just as painfull. The injury is moot as I asked for two other matches with the same opponent and agreed to allow the same technique of pressing the elbow into my throat. I now believe that I can defend against this technique effectively as I have instilled in my own mind the purpose of the pain. Couldn't swallow or bend my arm for a day or so, but, it was worth the pain.

If one doesn't train such that he/she becomes desensitized to pain caused by Aggression, they may not react correctly when pain is thrust upon them. They may quit, become over chemicalized within their own body's systems and or they may chose flight instead of fight.

But, I really want to hear what other Ninjitsu members have to say and what they think of the subjects of Aggression and Attitude if I may. Hope that my taking your post elsewhere is not an offense. (I also presented them with the budoseek post (Mcdojo .....). You're welcomed to observe or enter into the discussion.

Good seeing you again.
 
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BoneBreaker

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I did this because I wanted to hear the opinions of other MA'st devoted to a Koga / MMA System. Aggression is a subject (legitimate as it may be) that few students openly consider "expecially by those lacking skill and will" as you state. However, I'd like to find out if this is actually true. Is Aggression frowned upon by those because of a lacking of skill and will? On a 50/50 basis thus far, half the members believe that Aggression may not be warranted or usefull in trainings as one member stated: how can I train if I am always injured in training. Or, it's (aggression) a dishonorable attitude for one to have and use against his training partners (paraphrases). Those that agree seem to believe that, without Aggression, you aren't really training or to be successfull in life, you must train as you fight.
It is frowned upon because it is not for "everyone". Thusly a school will suffer until the people who believe in it or discover it actually pay for "services". My belief comes from the monks who adopted movements and practiced unarmed combat as a means for defense against thieves and others of ill will. The were peaceful monks, learning how to fight for a reason. A good reason.

Now today it could be argued that it is not necessary for one to engage in such activities to reach enlightenent and harmony of body, mind, and spirit. I would not totally disagree and dismiss them, but I do believe in my heart that without training as you fight, you are lacking a deeper understanding of the things you are or have learned. You evolve in a different way, a different path as it were to the same? end.

It simply creates more questions than answers. When one practices as they fight, you come to an understanding of self defense for personal reasons, you develop personal techniqes based upon what you learn. As a fight is chaos, so is learning something one specific way. A taller person does not stand the same way a shorter person stands to achieve the same goal. What you learn must be modified to fit your natural physics. You must also adjust your mindset. To learn how to be agressive is different than when to be agressive, restraint or explosiveness. Attitude is an entirely different matter, it means many things to different people.

What you are referring does not necessarily have to be a complex mental state involving beliefs, feelings, values and dispositions to act in certain ways. It could be a posture commonly known with the Gangstas as fronting etc or just a cool kung fu form to show off. Then you get into the embarassment of others for pleasure and alot of other twisted things that should bear no more mention. You must have Honor to thy self, you must strive to be honest in "ALL" things. With that being said attitude is entirely honorable. It is not disrepectful or wrong. It is entirely useful. It is the misuse most people have disdain for.

I live for what is useful, I consume that which is not. resistance is futile.
 
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Genin Andrew

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BoneBreaker said:
I currently study traditional Kung Fu under Sifu David Garcia.
Kung Fu is great art, hope it is going well. I'm just interested to learn about your Koga ninjutsu teachings, How did you learn,where and from who?

thanks
-andrew
 
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BoneBreaker

Guest
Genin Andrew said:
Kung Fu is great art, hope it is going well. I'm just interested to learn about your Koga ninjutsu teachings, How did you learn,where and from who?

thanks
-andrew
It is going very well thank you. I studied at Kurai no Koga ryu under Tshiro Tsmura. From 1993 -1997.
 
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