Which techniques from Judo fits into Karate?

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I am wondering about your opinions regarding which Judo/Jujutsu techniques will fits nicely into Karate.

I think techniques of escaping from ground pins will be very useful for Karateka because Karate itself doesn't have ground escapes.

Also, I think some Judo techniques can be used as follow up to Karate techniques, such as: Osoto Gari, Kosoto Gari, Morote Gari, Tani Otoshi and Kutchiki Taoshi.

Comments please?

 

[CrankyDragon]

Your starting to see the magic of MMA. MTB with BJJ and Judo yields a well rounded training regement.

To be effective in any martial art, you need to study and practice it, thus you really need to take the class. For you, that would mean Karate and Judo at the same time... and yes, it can be done.

One reason I gave up Aikido, besides the specifics of needing to be exactly on target or your technique is wortless IMHO, is there are no techniques for the ground. Dont get me wrong, theres a ton of PRINCIPLES of Aikido which I retaine and apply to BJJ and Judo to make it more effective.

These are my opinions, Im sure others will post with various views. I am not saying you need to study Judo to the black belt level, but far enough to be competent in some take downs and grappling. From my observations, many if not most true fights end up on the ground. And 90% of people dont know how to grapple. Now, if you either end up on the ground, or you take your opponent to the ground, then its your advantage. Again, my opinion.

Many argue about multiple attackers. Well, the ground is not where you want to go with more than 1, so use your standing techniques until you are able to grapple. Once you blood choke some fool to sleepyville, the others are not so eager to fight you either.

Good luck,
Andrew

 

[eyebeams]

I am wondering about your opinions regarding which Judo/Jujutsu techniques will fits nicely into Karate.

I think techniques of escaping from ground pins will be very useful for Karateka because Karate itself doesn't have ground escapes.

Also, I think some Judo techniques can be used as follow up to Karate techniques, such as: Osoto Gari, Kosoto Gari, Morote Gari, Tani Otoshi and Kutchiki Taoshi.

Comments please?

I personally like working Tani-otoshi because I can get a fair amount of power with it, but I'd say that ashi-guruma, tai-otoshi, koshi-guruma flow particularly well from karate footwork.

 

[JAMJTX]

Harai Goshi - take a look at the throw and the motion of your side kick.
Here's a well known video clip: http://www.jimmccoy.com/judo.cfm
Doesn't this motion have a lot in commin with a kick that you know.

It is interesting to study various martial arts - cross training is an old idea, not knew. But cross training is not required to learn various aspects or ranges of fighting. Traditonal, non-sport oriented arts are complete. There is even ground fighting in Karate, atleast in Goju Ryu. You have to learn the kata and learn how to apply your knowledge in different situations.

I guess most karateka have heard the phrase "a block is a strike". Add to that, "a block is strike, a strike is throw" and strikes include kicks, so a kick is a throw.

The main difference between Judo throws and Karate throws in the off-balancing.

One of the myths that of Karate - that Uke means block - causes a lot of misunderstanding. Uke means reception - think of Ukes' role in your Jujutsu. Uke is the one "receiving" the technique - or who is "received" by Tori. Here you see a demonstration of the principle of Ju. Now apply that to your Karate blocks and "receive" uke. Here you see the JU of Goju Ryu as well as the JU aspects of other Karate styles.

Look for the commonalities in other arts as well as those ideas that are not just common but similar in motion. Then look at your karate kata and see how you can work the other arts into your kata. The chances are you will find every Aikido, Jujutsu or Judo technique that you know will be applicable some where in your karate kata.

Your home work for today is a simple assignment. Find one of your Karate kata that has Seo Nage in it. You will likely find it is a kata that you learned as white/yellow belt but went on to a new kata instead of learning this one thoroughly.

 

[kempo-vjj]

I think the answer is all or most. The ones you listed above we do. Our school is a blend of Shorin-ryu kempo and Vee-arnis jujitsu. So far we go block-strike-strike-strike-throw-submit or strike some more maybe. All about where your at. Its all about your awareness of your body position at the time, insert throw where applies. The other week were doing some American Kenpo techniques, none of them included throws that we did, but at this certain point I was like, I've been here before, "hey", I asked my instructor"couldnt you do a reverse wrist throw from here"? He smiled and said "sure why not. Learn the techniques then make them your own". Awww Im learning. Putting two and two together in training is a great moment.

 

[arnisador]

I think the answer is all or most.

I agree. Judo and Karate complement one another very well. You can use Karate techniques and if your opponent gets too close or gets ahold of you in a way that limits your strikes, you can switch! I can see just about any Judo technique fitting well. Sacrifice techniques may not fit with the Karate philosophy of fighting, but would work as a Judo technique if and when needed.

 

[CrankyDragon]

So far we go block-strike-strike-strike-throw-submit or strike some more maybe.

Now thats MY kind of martial art!

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Your home work for today is a simple assignment. Find one of your Karate kata that has Seo Nage in it. You will likely find it is a kata that you learned as white/yellow belt but went on to a new kata instead of learning this one thoroughly.

Ehm... I guess the sequence of techniques near the end of Pinan Godan (before the two swastika posture) could be interpreted as a shoulder throw? I was told that if we jump in a Kata, it doesn't always means a jump, it could also means our opponent's body getting thrown..

What do you think Jim san?

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

BTW I am so very happy with the helpful answers I receive from all my friends in MartialTalk. Now I understand why sensei insists that all his Karate students should learn some Jujutsu and/or Sambo, and that all his Jujutsu students must learn some Karate The arts complements each other very much

Again, thank you all!

Quick Question: I know that the lying-on-the-ground kick of Kata Unsu can also be used as a leg scissor. Is there any other use of it (other than a kick/leg scissor)??

 

[Makalakumu]

Harai Goshi - take a look at the throw and the motion of your side kick.

Here's a well known video clip: http://www.jimmccoy.com/judo.cfm
Doesn't this motion have a lot in commin with a kick that you know.

This application is all over the pyung ahn and bassai katas. Every karateka should know this throw if one practices those forms. Variations of this through are important too.

It is interesting to study various martial arts - cross training is an old idea, not knew. But cross training is not required to learn various aspects or ranges of fighting. Traditonal, non-sport oriented arts are complete. There is even ground fighting in Karate, atleast in Goju Ryu. You have to learn the kata and learn how to apply your knowledge in different situations.

This is absolutely correct for any system that uses the traditional okinawan kata. The throwing, the joint locks and the groundwork are all part of the tuite inherit to those forms.

All in all, I think practicing jujutsu and karate together is a good idea. The techniques in jujutsu give one a focused session in tuite.

I guess most karateka have heard the phrase "a block is a strike". Add to that, "a block is strike, a strike is throw" and strikes include kicks, so a kick is a throw.

Very nicely put.

The main difference between Judo throws and Karate throws in the off-balancing.

I would agree, the kazushi is different and I think that is because judo is a sport and things start from the referees position. In karate, a throw may begin from a variety of situations so one learns how to kazushi someone from a variety of situations.

One of the myths that of Karate - that Uke means block - causes a lot of misunderstanding. Uke means reception - think of Ukes' role in your Jujutsu. Uke is the one "receiving" the technique - or who is "received" by Tori. Here you see a demonstration of the principle of Ju. Now apply that to your Karate blocks and "receive" uke. Here you see the JU of Goju Ryu as well as the JU aspects of other Karate styles.

This is very deep and very true also. All of the so called blocking techniques are just recieving force and all of the "striking" techniques are issuing it.

Look for the commonalities in other arts as well as those ideas that are not just common but similar in motion. Then look at your karate kata and see how you can work the other arts into your kata. The chances are you will find every Aikido, Jujutsu or Judo technique that you know will be applicable some where in your karate kata.

However, in many cases, I do not think that it is there on purpose in forms that were created away from traditional sources. New TKD forms come to mind as an example. Okinawan and some chinese forms were designed with tuite in mind.

Your home work for today is a simple assignment. Find one of your Karate kata that has Seo Nage in it. You will likely find it is a kata that you learned as white/yellow belt but went on to a new kata instead of learning this one thoroughly.

Gi Cho Hyung Ee Boo. Basic form number two. The three quarter turn from "high block" to "low block".

Here is another thing to work with...where ever one sees a front kick in a form, think Soto Gama.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I have another good combination.. Nidan geri. First throw a low kick to the groin of opponent. He will instinctively block low, leaving his upper body open for counters. Immediately grab his collars and perform tomoenage. The whole sequence are done like doing Nidan geri. Anybody ever tried that out?

 

[bignick]

The only problem I see with that is if you leave your foot there. He's got plenty of time to grab it while you're trying to grab the collar and exectue the throw. If you do throw the kick and recover before going for tomoe nage you may have just focused attention on that area and when the foot comes back up he may be able to block the throw...

Just off the top of my head...I'll try to play with this one a little...

 

[Sensei Paul Hart]

I am kind of curious about this whole idea. What Judo techniques would work well in Karate. How about the ones already there? Karate, itself is from the same lineage as Daito Ryu via Minamoto Bujutsu. The Minamotos were known to be great Archers and great Taijutsu skills which included throws. There was not a lot of wrestling type techniques as a warrior in battle may not fare to well if he went to the ground with othrs around who had swords, spears and other weapons of war. The techniques in traditional Karate were to allow you to get up on your feet at the conclusion and this was usually verily quick after you were on the ground.

Some will say these techniques are lost, but I assure you if you search them out you will find that Torite is still a very valid part of Karate. I think that maybe some of Taika Oyata's guys put out a video on it. Not real sure on that but something you could look into.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Simple answee All Do if you can make them work

 

[arnisador]

Karate, itself is from the same lineage as Daito Ryu via Minamoto Bujutsu.

Surely most styles of Karate do not have Jujutsu in their backgrounds?

 

[Sensei Paul Hart]

Actually, all Shorin does. Minamoto Tametomo lost to the Tiara. Some say that because he was a great warrior and fought with great heart the Tiara allowed him to live but banished him to Oshima Island. After a short time he made his way to Okinawa. While there he met up with Ozato Aji, the ruler of Urazoe castle. He married Ozato Aji's daughter and they bore a son. His name was Shunten.

After a while on Oki, Tametome decided the peaceful Oki life was not to his liking. He left with many promises to return. His wife, being a strong willed woman, returned to the port he left from Daily. This port is now called Machimoto, which means the waiting port.

When Tametomo left he assigned guardians for his wife and son. This was the job given to Ushigimina. He would have assured that Shunten would have a proper Martial upbringing being in the Minamoto line.

There is also some proof that other Samurai the joined Tametomo and probably taught the Minamoto Bujutsu to these who sided with them.

To simplify this post, the Minamoto line, through Shunten ended up becoming the Motobu generations later. The Motobu we know taught the Oki Royal families and their protectors. It is through this that we get Motobu Ryu Udundi. This was an art that was taught to Bushi Matsumura, and some proof exists that Tode Sakugawa also knew this art. Matsumura after returning from his Martial studies in China added this with his knowledge of the Lohan arts to form the Shuri lineage of Karate.

So the answer is yes, all styles that get their origin from the Shuri/Shorin lineage has as its forerunner Bujutsu which in the Minamoto line contained Aikijutsu.

 

[Makalakumu]

So the answer is yes, all styles that get thier origin from the Shuri/Shorin lineage has as its forerunner Bujutsu which in the Minamoto line contained Aikijutsu.

Every once in a while a post comes along and grants a reader an epiphany. I've often wondered why my aikido, jujutsu and karate training all seemed to share so much in common. I always thought that it was because we shared a common medium...the human body. I did not think that one would actually be able to explain the similarities by showing an actual importation/exportation of knowledge.

Thank you for this information

:asian:

upnorthkyosa

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

The only problem I see with that is if you leave your foot there. He's got plenty of time to grab it while you're trying to grab the collar and exectue the throw....

Then I will execute a two-footed Tomoenage.

Well it's a bit hard to describe in words.. let me make a clip of it and get back to you.

 

[arnisador]

Actually, all Shorin does.

I don't think this is a widely accepted theory...but I could be wrong. I'll do more digging!

 

[Sensei Paul Hart]

Not theory, truth. go outside of the Martial arts history and look at Japanese and Okinawa history that is written. Look at Toritomo Minamoto and follow it back. It will take you some years, I have been researching this for about the last 15 or so, I still uncover things I didn't know or that I wasn't taught be Sensei. It is a long journey when it comes to finding mostly unpublished history but the stuff does exist. Like the changes made in karate after Itosu took over or after it was given to the Japanese. I love quoting from Kenwa Mabuni's 1939 book Karatedo nyumon about "the karate that was introduced to Tokyo is actually a single part of a larger whole."