Where are the techniques?

Dominic82555

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Why is it that WC is applied between 2 combatants esp WC. All you see is basically a head on clash and chain punches. Where's the lap sap, bong sap, trapping etc. smh What it really looks like is 2 combatants trying to get as many blows as possible no matter how. Funny, both seems to be catching as many blows as thrown. Where's the defense, where's the strategy? Thank you
 

drop bear

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Why is it that WC is applied between 2 combatants esp WC. All you see is basically a head on clash and chain punches. Where's the lap sap, bong sap, trapping etc. smh What it really looks like is 2 combatants trying to get as many blows as possible no matter how. Funny, both seems to be catching as many blows as thrown. Where's the defense, where's the strategy? Thank you

Because pressure fighting vs pressure fighting is quite often a game of who has the best cardio and who has the toughest chin.

Trapping is almost to be used for rangey attacks. Or if they shell up.

The idea that from inside the pocket you will even see a punch coming is overly ambitious.
Trying to block and strike a guy who is striking and striking you back. Is overly ambitious.



So generally the issue is they are attacking without all the tools needed to make their system work. And the whole thing falls to crap.

So hand trapping works provided the punch you are dealing with is either slow or predictable. But you have to create those circumstances.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Where's the defense, where's the strategy?
If you put your arms in your center between you and your opponent, your opponent's straight punch has to go through your hand, go through your arm, before it can meet your face. This will eliminate your opponent's straight punch possibility. Your opponent can only use circular punch to go around your arm. This can simplify the striking game into 1/2. You only have to worry about your opponent's hook punch. You don't have to worry about his jab and cross. When your opponent throws hook punch at you, his face will be exposed for your straight punch.

Since your hands are far away from your head and close to your opponent's head (the major difference between the WC guard and the boxing guard), This will give you more space. This also will give your opponent less space. Old Chinese saying said, "It's always better to fight in your opponent's territory than to fight in your own territory."
 
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Dominic82555

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Why is it that WC is applied between 2 combatants esp WC. All you see is basically a head on clash and chain punches. Where's the lap sao, bong sao, trapping etc. smh What it really looks like is 2 combatants trying to get as many blows as possible no matter how. Funny, both seems to be catching as many blows as thrown. Where's the defense, where's the strategy? Thank you
Why is it that WC is applied between 2 combatants esp WC. All you see is basically a head on clash and chain punches. Where's the lap sap, bong sap, trapping etc. smh What it really looks like is 2 combatants trying to get as many blows as possible no matter how. Funny, both seems to be catching as many blows as thrown. Where's the defense, where's the strategy? Thank you
 

Kung Fu Wang

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If we look at this WC guard (many CMA style use this guard too),

- His left arm is extended but his right arm is not. His right hand is next to his left elbow joint.
- His left hand has less distance to generate punching power. His right hand has more distance to generate punching power.
- Both of his hands are away from his head.
- His "front door" is protected well, but his both "side doors" are exposed.
- He can interrupt his opponent's punch away from his head.
- He uses "protect center from inside out" strategy.

wc-guard-1.jpg


If we look at this boxing guard,

- His both arms are close to his head.
- Both of his hands have enough distance to generate punching power.
- His "front door" is exposed. Bust both of his "side doors" are protected well.
- He need to interrupt his opponent's punch near to his head.
- He uses "protect center from outside in" strategy.

boxing-guard-1.jpg


Since the

- WC guard can protect front door well, but can't protect side doors well (hook punch can still go around the WC guard),
- Boxing guard can protect side doors well, but can't protect front door well (straight punch can still go through between the boxing guard),

Is there a "guard" that can have the PRO of both guards, but doesn't have the CON of both guards? The rhino guard that you hold both hands into a big fist, extend both arms, and hide your head behind can be the choice. The only issue with the rhino guard is it's good for establishing clinch. It's not good for striking. Unless you are a wrestler, the rhino guard may help you in defense, but it may no help you in offense (if you are a pure striker).
 
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Highlander

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Why is it that WC is applied between 2 combatants esp WC. All you see is basically a head on clash and chain punches. Where's the lap sap, bong sap, trapping etc. smh What it really looks like is 2 combatants trying to get as many blows as possible no matter how. Funny, both seems to be catching as many blows as thrown. Where's the defense, where's the strategy? Thank you

Alot of people misinterpreted what the bong, tan, pak, etc are in wt. People tend to see them as fix positions that you block with. In reality they are verbs, let's look at just tan sao. Alot of non wt ,and even wt, people think tan as the palm up elbow bent at the 135簞 position. Its actually just the act of dispersing your opponents energy. That position is just a very effective way of doing so, but you can do a tan with your arm in any position.
Another misinterpreted thing about wt is the attack and defense at the same time. People take this to mean you disperse (tan) with one hand and punch with the other. But the highest form of this is dispersing the attack and hitting with the same arm.
ANOTHER (ugh I'm boring myself at this point) misconception is the idea of fix points. You'll never do a tan dar and freeze in that position, you'll flow through it and most likely never even see the structure of the "block".
The reason you see people just punching and getting hit in so many videos is because there is so much bad wt out there. Just like every other system the bad ugly practitioners seem to out weight the good ones. People either lack practice, understanding, or both. It could also be a lack of understanding the drill you're watching. My sifu actually use to have us run that same drill when I was starting out. Chain punch vs chain punch, just to build endurance and get use to getting hit

A great person to YouTube for all of these concepts would be Emin Boztepe.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Alot of people misinterpreted what the bong, tan, pak, etc are in wt.
The WC Bong, Tang, Fu, Pak, ... are used for defense (to deflect a punch). IMO, it doesn't make sense to use defense skill to describe a MA style.

For example,

- Boxing has jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...
- TKD has front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- Judo has hip throw, foot sweep, single leg, double legs, ...
- Eagle claw has finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, ...
- ...

Most MA systems use offense skill to describe the system.
 

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The WC Bong, Tang, Fu, Pak, ... are used for defense (to deflect a punch). IMO, it doesn't make sense to use defense skill to describe a MA style.

For example,

- Boxing has jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...
- TKD has front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- Judo has hip throw, foot sweep, single leg, double legs, ...
- Eagle claw has finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, ...
- ...

Most MA systems use offense skill to describe the system.
While that's true, I think a lot of what we recognize about some systems is their defensive approach. The super-short description tends to be a very limited view of the art, leaving out very important aspects.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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While that's true, I think a lot of what we recognize about some systems is their defensive approach. The super-short description tends to be a very limited view of the art, leaving out very important aspects.
You can't solve your problem by just blocking your opponent's punch. Soon or later you have to punch back to end a fight.

I just came back from Houston for the 2019 World Star Chinese Martial Arts Competition last Sunday. In that tournament, I had met many Taiji teachers there. During the general CMA discussion, I asked my favor question, "Which Taiji technique will you use to end a fight?" I didn't get a solid answer for my question. The Taiji system also talk about yield, stick, follow, sink, soft, .... They also don't want to talk about punch, kick, lock, throw that exist in their system.
 

yak sao

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You can't solve your problem by just blocking your opponent's punch. Soon or later you have to punch back to end a fight....
.... They also don't want to talk about punch, kick, lock, throw that exist in their system.

You are generalizing about WC, which may be true with some lineages, but you are in no way describing any WT that I've ever trained.
WT is a very offensive method. The tan, bong, etc. are not blocks. They are attacks that have gone out and met an opposing force and were deformed into these shapes while the other hand, or our feet are continuing with the attack.
Then there are certain other "active" techniques that are used such as pak sau and jut sau that are used, again, not as blocks, but to clear the way for an attack.
 

Gerry Seymour

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You can't solve your problem by just blocking your opponent's punch. Soon or later you have to punch back to end a fight.

I just came back from Houston for the 2019 World Star Chinese Martial Arts Competition last Sunday. In that tournament, I had met many Taiji teachers there. During the general CMA discussion, I asked my favor question, "Which Taiji technique will you use to end a fight?" I didn't get a solid answer for my question. The Taiji system also talk about yield, stick, follow, sink, soft, .... They also don't want to talk about punch, kick, lock, throw that exist in their system.
What has any of that to do with the fact that defense is an integral part of every system? All of them.
 

Highlander

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The WC Bong, Tang, Fu, Pak, ... are used for defense (to deflect a punch). IMO, it doesn't make sense to use defense skill to describe a MA style.

For example,

- Boxing has jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...
- TKD has front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- Judo has hip throw, foot sweep, single leg, double legs, ...
- Eagle claw has finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, ...
- ...

Most MA systems use offense skill to describe the system.
Boxing-Footwork and head movement and standard guards.
TKD- Olgul Makki
Judo-Harai-uke
Eagle Claw- cross block

If someone asked me to describe WT it would be as a close style Chinese boxing art. Not as tan sao. I agree it makes no sense to describe a MA as its defensive techniques. But every art has them. And this particular question was related to them.

 

Highlander

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The WC Bong, Tang, Fu, Pak, ... are used for defense (to deflect a punch).
This is the exact misinterpretation I'm referring to in my post actually. This is just my belief for my own personal WT however. Everyone has their own way of applying it
 

Highlander

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How will you use Fu Shou to hurt your opponent?

WC-Tan-Fu.jpg
That's the other one I hit. Fook sao isn't a structure it's a verb. "To control from on top." So punching over someone's arm to hit them while keep a low heavy elbow to keep their arm pinned is fook (fu) sao.
 

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