When is a Master

[Mrman]

You see different individuals calling themselves master, at what stage is it acceptable and does that affect their own Ego. You come across the arrogance then stumble across a Web page and get astonished by how some overvalue themselves. If you fancy a seminar with one for example, take out your bank loan and do it. This guy I heard say women can't do wing chun as they are not strong enough? So just let them join in for fun. Wow

 

[skribs]

Huh?

 

[Teapot]

I think there's a cultural/language issue here.

Sure, Google Translate would say that Shifu translate to "master"

But I think this translation is missing a lot of connotations to the actual meaning of the word.

I think a lot of people mistakingly confuse "master" to mean something similar to a Chess master. And just like in Chess, they also adopt another term "grandmaster".

But the actual connotation of "Shifu" (and I'm not talking about using it for Blue Collar workers here like a Taxi driver) has to do with the "master-apprentice" relationship.

Shifu and Tudi (Disciple).

So "master" is not some Chess Elo status that you reached; it's describing a relationship.

Normally, a Tudi would call someone their "Shifu" instead of a Shifu calling himself Shifu as if it's an honorific. A lot of people treat the word as if it's a "Mr." or "Mrs." such as "My name is Shifu John Smith."

To me, that's very weird.

If you are someone's student but not their Tudi, you would normally just refer to that teacher as "Laoshi" which.... just means teacher.

When you become a "Shifu" in this context, to me, means when did you start taking on disciples/apprentices?

I think... some Chinese teachers liked the idea of Westerners worshipping them as gods, so they just went with it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think there's a cultural/language issue here.

Sure, Google Translate would say that Shifu translate to "master"
View attachment 31338

But I think this translation is missing a lot of connotations to the actual meaning of the word.

I think a lot of people mistakingly confuse "master" to mean something similar to a Chess master. And just like in Chess, they also adopt another term "grandmaster".

But the actual connotation of "Shifu" (and I'm not talking about using it for Blue Collar workers here like a Taxi driver) has to do with the "master-apprentice" relationship.

Shifu and Tudi (Disciple).

So "master" is not some Chess Elo status that you reached; it's describing a relationship.

Normally, a Tudi would call someone their "Shifu" instead of a Shifu calling himself Shifu as if it's an honorific. A lot of people treat the word as if it's a "Mr." or "Mrs." such as "My name is Shifu John Smith."

To me, that's very weird.

If you are someone's student but not their Tudi, you would normally just refer to that teacher as "Laoshi" which.... just means teacher.

When you become a "Shifu" in this context, to me, means when did you start taking on disciples/apprentices?

I think... some Chinese teachers liked the idea of Westerners worshipping them as gods, so they just went with it.

Shifu, in context of martial arts can simply mean teacher. Sifu, the Cantonese pronouciation generally means teacher.

And don't get me started on Grand Master or worse yet Sigong/Shigong

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You see different individuals calling themselves master,

In Chinese culture, master is not used. To respect an older MA person, usually you add in a word "old" between his first name and his last name. For example, to respect John Smith, you may call him "John old Smith".

Whenever my teacher said, "XX old YY". I know he mentions a MA person in his previous generation who has good MA skill.

 

[Teapot]

Shifu, in context of martial arts can simply mean teacher. Sifu, the Cantonese pronouciation generally means teacher.

And don't get me started on Grand Master or worse yet Sigong/Shigong

I would certainly prefer "teacher" over "master" as the common perception of the word "Shifu", but that still does fail to capture some connotations.

Just as the word "fu" in Shifu means father, there is the connotation of something akin to father-adopted son bond.

This guy shares the same view as me:

where he says he wouldn't call other martial arts teachers "Shifu" as it's a little inappropriate. And he talks about Baishi.

So this is all the more old-school version of what Shifu means.

In my case, my Laoshi became my Shifu once I Baishi under him. He wasn't my Shifu beforehand.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would certainly prefer "teacher" over "master" as the common perception of the word "Shifu", but that still does fail to capture some connotations.

Just as the word "fu" in Shifu means father, there is the connotation of something akin to father-adopted son bond.

This guy shares the same view as me:

where he says he wouldn't call other martial arts teachers "Shifu" as it's a little inappropriate. And he talks about Baishi.

So this is all the more old-school version of what Shifu means.

In my case, my Laoshi became my Shifu once I Baishi under him. He wasn't my Shifu beforehand.

I'm just going with what Chinese (Mostly Northern) folk tell me. And the few Southern people I know say

 

[geezer]

I would certainly prefer "teacher" over "master" as the common perception of the word "Shifu", but that still does fail to capture some connotations.

Just as the word "fu" in Shifu means father, there is the connotation of something akin to father-adopted son bond.

This guy shares the same view as me:

where he says he wouldn't call other martial arts teachers "Shifu" as it's a little inappropriate. And he talks about Baishi.

So this is all the more old-school version of what Shifu means.

In my case, my Laoshi became my Shifu once I Baishi under him. He wasn't my Shifu beforehand.

My old Chinese Sifu pointed out that in Cantonese (and possibly in Mandarin as well?) there are two different terms, written with different Chinese characters that are both pronounced as "si-fu". One, meaning teacher-father is the term for your direct teacher (especially if you did bai-si, as I did).

The other commonly used term, also pronounced as si-fu, simply means someone who is accomplished or knowledgeable in something. In that sense it could also translate to a "master" in English, simply meaning a skilled craftsman or practitioner. In fact, I've been told that this
term "si-fu" is commonly used to address cab drivers ...at least if they know where the heck they are going. Masters of the road, I guess!

Anyway, this second term "si-fu" is a totally legit (if slightly pretentious) way to refer to any skilled CMA instructor even though they are not your personal sifu or teacher-father.

Lastly, if you are really formal. old fashioned, and probably from old money, you can be called "master" (in English) when you are a child or youth up until you are mature enough to adopt the term "mister" or "esquire", etc. If you don't know about this, just ask this young gentleman:

 

[Xue Sheng]

My old Chinese Sifu pointed out that in Cantonese (and possibly in Mandarin as well?) there are two different terms, written with different Chinese characters that are both pronounced as "si-fu". One, meaning teacher-father is the term for your direct teacher (especially if you did bai-si, as I did).

The other commonly used term, also pronounced as si-fu, simply means someone who is accomplished or knowledgeable in something. In that sense it could also translate to a "master" in English, simply meaning a skilled craftsman or practitioner. In fact, I've been told that this
term "si-fu" is commonly used to address cab drivers ...at least if they know where the heck they are going. Masters of the road, I guess!

Anyway, this second term "si-fu" is a totally legit (if slightly pretentious) way to refer to any skilled CMA instructor even though they are not your personal sifu or teacher-father.

Lastly, if you are really formal. old fashioned, and probably from old money, you can be called "master" (in English) when you are a child or youth up until you are mature enough to adopt the term "mister" or "esquire", etc. If you don't know about this, just ask this young gentleman:

View attachment 31350

My Sanda Shifu (Northern Chinese) said pretty much the same thing. But in Mandarin the pronunciations were the same, it was the context in which it was used that made the difference. But then my wife (Northern Chinese, Beijingren) always said he had a funny Heilongjiang accent

 

[Teapot]

My old Chinese Sifu pointed out that in Cantonese (and possibly in Mandarin as well?) there are two different terms, written with different Chinese characters that are both pronounced as "si-fu". One, meaning teacher-father is the term for your direct teacher (especially if you did bai-si, as I did).

The other commonly used term, also pronounced as si-fu, simply means someone who is accomplished or knowledgeable in something. In that sense it could also translate to a "master" in English simply meaning a skilled craftsman or practitioner. In fact, I've been told that this
term "si-fu" is commonly used to address cab drivers ...at least if they know where the heck they are going. Masters of the road, I guess!

Anyway, the second term "si-fu" is a totally legit (if slightly pretentious) way to refer to any skilled CMA instructor even though they are not your personal sifu or teacher-father.

Lastly, if you are really formal. old fashioned, and probably from old money, you can be called "master" when you are a child or youth up until you are mature enough to adopt the term "mister" or "esquire", etc. If you don't know about this, just ask this young gentleman:

View attachment 31350

If people were referring to the other usage of si-fu, it's a lot less flattering when a cab driver can be called that as well.

For how much people flaunt and brag about it, a cab driver can be like: "Hey! Me too!'

 

[Xue Sheng]

If people were referring to the other usage of si-fu, it's a lot less flattering when a cab driver can be called that as well.

For how much people flaunt and brag about it, a cab driver can be like: "Hey! Me too!'

Not according to the folks I know, it has to do with a skill, be that chef, carpenter, brick layer, not a cab driver

 

[Teapot]

Not according to the folks I know, it has to do with a skill, be that chef, carpenter, brick layer, not a cab driver

But do they call themselves that like an honorific?

"Hello! My name is Sifu John Smith!"

 

[Xue Sheng]

But do they call themselves that like an honorific?

"Hello! My name is Sifu John Smith!"

Never heard any Chinese person, even martial artists, introduce themselves as Shifu/sifu. At least no mainlanders. Generally that is something others call them, they do not give themselves that title

 

[Teapot]

Never heard any Chinese person, even martial artists, introduce themselves as Shifu/sifu. At least no mainlanders. Generally that is something others call them, they do not give themselves that title

I 100% agree.

Regardless of which of the two definitions is being used here, neither of them justifies the enormous population of websites and videos where the teacher calls himself that.

There's a guy who calls himself "Sigung Richard Clear".

I would venture to guess he thought that meant "Grandmaster Richard Clear."

 

[Hot Lunch]

If you fancy a seminar with one for example, take out your bank loan and do it. This guy I heard say women can't do wing chun as they are not strong enough? So just let them join in for fun. Wow

Was this paragraph supposed to be part of a different post?

I'm there to train in martial arts, not pick cotton.

If I use the term "master," it will ONLY be used in the third person (in the absence of the person being referred to) and likely only to deceased individuals.

It just comes off as cultish to have to address someone in the second person as "master" or to demand or allow oneself to be called "master."

Even though "grand master" implies a higher rank than "master," I find "grand master" less cringey. At least no one on the plantation had to call anyone "grand master."

 

[isshinryuronin]

It just comes off as cultish to have to address someone in the second person as "master" or to demand or allow oneself to be called "master."

I agree. While in TKD, it seems common for a 5th degree to be called "master," in traditional karate this title does not come into play till at least 8th degree. My experience has been that those of such high rank prefer to be simply addressed as "sensei." Even Ed Parker, who was not known for modesty, was addressed by his black belts as "Mister Parker." But I'll admit my experience has been restricted to reputable instructors. IMO, there are way too many "masters" running around these days.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I agree. While in TKD, it seems common for a 5th degree to be called "master," in traditional karate this title does not come into play till at least 8th degree. My experience has been that those of such high rank prefer to be simply addressed as "sensei." Even Ed Parker, who was not known for modesty, was addressed by his black belts as "Mister Parker." But I'll admit my experience has been restricted to reputable instructors. IMO, there are way too many "masters" running around these days.

In our MDK system: 1-3 Teacher, 4-6 Master, 7-9 Grandmaster.
Personally, that's only for really formal situations. Ordinarily, I'm just Sabumnim, or Coach, or even Mark.

 

[geezer]

Not according to the folks I know, it has to do with a skill, be that chef, carpenter, brick layer, not a cab driver

"Sifu" for cabbies? May be a regional thing, or more likely, generational Language usage changes fast these days.

Anyway, here's a clip from the controversial, opinionated, and (in my opinion) entertaining Ramsey Dewey, an MMA coach in Shanghai China. It's pretty long, so for his spiel on the term "sifu" go to about 4:00 to 5:00 and listen to the last several minutes for his conclusion.

Ramsey can be pretty biased about TCMA at times, but not always. So he makes a lot of people mad. Guess I'm just a weirdo, but I like divergent opinions.

 

[geezer]

If people were referring to the other usage of si-fu ...For how much people flaunt and brag about it, a cab driver can be like: "Hey! Me too!'

You could be a cabby? Hmmm. Maybe. Depending on where ...and on how good a memory you have. Do you have any edea how hard it is to pass the cab driver test in London? I couldn't do it. That's not a skill I have. Take a look for yourself:

Honestly, I'd call these guys sir, sensei, sifu or whatever. Damned impressive, if you ask me!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I 100% agree.

Regardless of which of the two definitions is being used here, neither of them justifies the enormous population of websites and videos where the teacher calls himself that.

There's a guy who calls himself "Sigung Richard Clear".

I would venture to guess he thought that meant "Grandmaster Richard Clear."

Not what Sigung means. I have talked to him about that and he insists I don't understand how "he" is using it. My last word to him was "yes I do know how you are using it, and you're using it wrong"...

Sigung/shigung means teacher's teacher and anyone who uses that title is saying they taught their teacher who in turn taught them......