When everyone is a Master, no one is...

[Makalakumu]

Technically, when one reaches 4th dan in a Korean Martial Art, they become a Master. I've got some time before that occurs, so I don't have to worry about this too much. However, I recently met a 19 year old 4th dan and called this person Master out of respect. Later, I was struck by the sheer incredulity of it all. There are so many Masters now that the title has lost any meaning. It's like that line in the Incredibles..."when everyone is super, no one is."

I defy that. I will defy that. When everyone is a master, no one is. It is a measure the martial arts community that a person stands out by claiming to be normal.

 

[terryl965]

I agree I only obtain my 4th in TKD so I could go directly to the Kukkiwon for certification, it took me 21 years between test. I agree with all of this I have to be a Master, who needs all this Master stuff, I believe a Master is one that devotes his life to the Arts.
Terry

 

[AceHBK]

Technically, when one reaches 4th dan in a Korean Martial Art, they become a Master. I've got some time before that occurs, so I don't have to worry about this too much. However, I recently met a 19 year old 4th dan and called this person Master out of respect. Later, I was struck by the sheer incredulity of it all. There are so many Masters now that the title has lost any meaning. It's like that line in the Incredibles..."when everyone is super, no one is."

I defy that. I will defy that. When everyone is a master, no one is. It is a measure the martial arts community that a person stands out by claiming to be normal.

I have heard that TKD is good for that.
U dont hear about this in other MA's so it strikes me as odd and I see why people talk down TKD so much.

 

[Flying Crane]

Technically, when one reaches 4th dan in a Korean Martial Art, they become a Master. I've got some time before that occurs, so I don't have to worry about this too much. However, I recently met a 19 year old 4th dan and called this person Master out of respect. Later, I was struck by the sheer incredulity of it all. There are so many Masters now that the title has lost any meaning. It's like that line in the Incredibles..."when everyone is super, no one is."

I defy that. I will defy that. When everyone is a master, no one is. It is a measure the martial arts community that a person stands out by claiming to be normal.

Dude, rank is SOOOO abused in the martial arts. These young, high ranking guys, it is just unbelieveable. Personally, I tend to shy away from the high ranking guys 'cause I figure it is mostly ego and I don't want to deal with it. I question anyone ranked higher than 5th degree, and younger than about 45-50. I just don't think the experience in the art and life can justify the rank, no matter the pure physical skill, talent, or natural ability.

I've said it in a couple of other threads, but I'll put it out there again: I think there should be two levels of Black Belt. First is simply black belt as a non-instructor, and second would be blackbelt instructor. Instructor level could be given immediately, or later, or never, at your instructor's discretion. Once you are an instructor, that should be it. No fancy titles, no other ranks. At this point If you still need the carrot of further rank dangled in front of your face to motivate your training, then you don't deserve the rank that you have. Once you are an instructor, then you can promote all the way to that same rank. end of story. Of course there is always more to learn, and you know who is better and more knowledgeable than you, but further rank is just sort of pointless.

Just adding my two cents on this.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think about the company I'd keep by becoming a master. I would be really proud to call some my peers, but mostly disappointed by the sea of normalcy hiding behind the title.

 

[MSUTKD]

What is worse? People who claim high rank, say 10th Dan or the founder of a style. Pure BS. My teacher always told me that rank means nothing, you have to make it mean something.

ron

 

[jdinca]

Sorry, I wouldn't call a 19 year old master. I would, in my mind at least, question how a 19 year old could achieve a 4th degree in the first place.

I don't think there should be two different types of BB. I do think that a BB should signify a high level of skill in the subject, the presence of the martial arts skills other than the physical, AND the ability to teach the subject. With that group the belt DOES mean something. For the others, I can't argue the position that a BB, or any belt, doesn't really mean anything.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sorry, I wouldn't call a 19 year old master. I would, in my mind at least, question how a 19 year old could achieve a 4th degree in the first place.

I don't think there should be two different types of BB. I do think that a BB should signify a high level of skill in the subject, the presence of the martial arts skills other than the physical, AND the ability to teach the subject. With that group the belt DOES mean something. For the others, I can't argue the position that a BB, or any belt, doesn't really mean anything.

I agree with your first statement 100%.

Regarding your second statement, I am assuming you are aiming that at my suggestion of Non-instructor and Instructor level of blackbelt. I was just looking for a way to eliminate all the messy dan ranks and what they imply with teaching authority. Some schools say you have to be X Dan (maybe 3rd or 4th) to run your own school, but can assist at Brown Belt, or 1st - 2nd black, but even as an instructor can only promote up to one, or two levels below you before appealing to a higher authority, etc. This just seems very messy to me. I say, acknowledge skill with a basic Black Belt, non-instructor. When your instructor feels you are capable as an instructor yourself, whenever that may be, then you become ranked as Black Belt, Instructor. Then we put an end to all the special considerations and limitations.

Rank no longer becomes an issue down the road. Is there more to learn? of course. Are there others with more skill and knowledge? of course. Keep up with your own training and learning, but eliminate all this ranking nonsense.

These are just my thoughts. I think we have allowed rank issues to become too complicated. Once upon a time, this was not the case. You were either a student, or you were a teacher. When you were given a teaching license, that was the end of it (but not the end of your own training and growth, of course). I think this simplicity is better and less confusing.

I could see a lot of resistance to this idea from those who claim high rank, and especially those who like to be in control. To adopt a system like this, they would have to give up the "prestige" of their high rank, and would also have to give up much control over their martial arts empires. They no longer get to have much say over the ranking of their student's students, and such, but would rather have to trust that they granted their own students the Instructor ranking for good reason, and this next generation will also exercise good judgement in their own teaching and rankings. I don't expect many people to actually do this. It goes against human nature. It would be a breath of fresh air, however.

personally, if I ever start to teach, this is how I will do it.

 

[evenflow1121]

Honestly, today, I think rank is abused in just about all martial arts, not just Korean. I mean all you need is to start your own organization, pull ten ranks out of your behind, automatic grandmaster.

 

[jdinca]

I agree with your first statement 100%.

Regarding your second statement, I am assuming you are aiming that at my suggestion of Non-instructor and Instructor level of blackbelt. I was just looking for a way to eliminate all the messy dan ranks and what they imply with teaching authority. Some schools say you have to be X Dan (maybe 3rd or 4th) to run your own school, but can assist at Brown Belt, or 1st - 2nd black, but even as an instructor can only promote up to one, or two levels below you before appealing to a higher authority, etc. This just seems very messy to me. I say, acknowledge skill with a basic Black Belt, non-instructor. When your instructor feels you are capable as an instructor yourself, whenever that may be, then you become ranked as Black Belt, Instructor. Then we put an end to all the special considerations and limitations.

Rank no longer becomes an issue down the road. Is there more to learn? of course. Are there others with more skill and knowledge? of course. Keep up with your own training and learning, but eliminate all this ranking nonsense.

These are just my thoughts. I think we have allowed rank issues to become too complicated. Once upon a time, this was not the case. You were either a student, or you were a teacher. When you were given a teaching license, that was the end of it (but not the end of your own training and growth, of course). I think this simplicity is better and less confusing.

I could see a lot of resistance to this idea from those who claim high rank, and especially those who like to be in control. To adopt a system like this, they would have to give up the "prestige" of their high rank, and would also have to give up much control over their martial arts empires. They no longer get to have much say over the ranking of their student's students, and such, but would rather have to trust that they granted their own students the Instructor ranking for good reason, and this next generation will also exercise good judgement in their own teaching and rankings. I don't expect many people to actually do this. It goes against human nature. It would be a breath of fresh air, however.

personally, if I ever start to teach, this is how I will do it.

I agree it's a mess, the question is what to do about it? Rank is not going to go away. It has proven too valuable to most schools as a motivator, especially in our instant gratification society.

As for teaching, it's another messy situation. What it takes to be a teacher is different from school to school, system to system. That's not going to change either. In our school, you can become an instructor at Blue Belt. You won't be teaching anybody higher than an advanced orange belt and you have to have successfully completed an instructor trainee program that can last up to several years, depending on a number of variables. It's an extremely organized, rigorous process but it means that by the time you've achieved your BB, you already have several years of teaching experience. This is quite different from the school where a blue belt may be told, "you know, I think it's time you started assisting me in teaching". Not that that is a bad way to do it but it's different.

Given that we can't change those variables, I think the only way to really address it is to have a standard concept of what a BB means. I think that that is where the rub is. Now, get everybody on board to agree to a standard...

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree it's a mess, the question is what to do about it? Rank is not going to go away. It has proven too valuable to most schools as a motivator, especially in our instant gratification society.

As for teaching, it's another messy situation. What it takes to be a teacher is different from school to school, system to system. That's not going to change either. In our school, you can become an instructor at Blue Belt. You won't be teaching anybody higher than an advanced orange belt and you have to have successfully completed an instructor trainee program that can last up to several years, depending on a number of variables. It's an extremely organized, rigorous process but it means that by the time you've achieved your BB, you already have several years of teaching experience. This is quite different from the school where a blue belt may be told, "you know, I think it's time you started assisting me in teaching". Not that that is a bad way to do it but it's different.

Given that we can't change those variables, I think the only way to really address it is to have a standard concept of what a BB means. I think that that is where the rub is. Now, get everybody on board to agree to a standard...

Yeah, you got good points, esp. regarding getting everyone to agree on standards for a black belt. Especially across different styles, this just will never happen.

With regard to your system of training to become an instructor so that these skills are in place by the time you reach black belt, I say: Great! This is a case where the student could earn their black belt and be given instructor ranking at the same time. They have completed the "formal" system and come up thru the ranks, and they have earned the teaching credential. ideally, they should no longer need the carrot.

But you are also right, regarding our Instant Gratification society. Perhaps the martial arts can be an endeavor where this is not catered to. I bet for those who stick with it, it could be a more positive experience in shaping their life values. Problem for many people is, it becomes more difficult to keep a business alive if you aren't willing to play this game.

As for myself, I can't really see ever owning a formal business as a martial arts teacher. I expect that if I ever begin teaching, it will be in a much more informal environment, and I doubt I would ever have more than a handful of students at a time. This gives me the luxury to do it as I like. Since it will never be my source of financial livlihood, it doesn't matter if people leave to go to a school where they can get all kinds of ranks. I won't offer that, so if that is what they want, they need to go elsewhere and that is OK with me.

Anyhow, I certainly understand why most people would never consider doing what I suggest here. But for those who might consider it, I suspect it could be a good thing in the long run.

 

[AceHBK]

I agree it's a mess, the question is what to do about it? Rank is not going to go away. It has proven too valuable to most schools as a motivator, especially in our instant gratification society.

As for teaching, it's another messy situation. What it takes to be a teacher is different from school to school, system to system. That's not going to change either. In our school, you can become an instructor at Blue Belt. You won't be teaching anybody higher than an advanced orange belt and you have to have successfully completed an instructor trainee program that can last up to several years, depending on a number of variables. It's an extremely organized, rigorous process but it means that by the time you've achieved your BB, you already have several years of teaching experience. This is quite different from the school where a blue belt may be told, "you know, I think it's time you started assisting me in teaching". Not that that is a bad way to do it but it's different.

Given that we can't change those variables, I think the only way to really address it is to have a standard concept of what a BB means. I think that that is where the rub is. Now, get everybody on board to agree to a standard...

Now I say it depends on the individual and how they were taught and their understanding of MA. I taught maybe 3 classes as a purple belt in my TKD class when my Master was called away on urgent business. I taught a kids class and I taught the adult class.
My master is starting up his own school so I am his highest ranked student. (Now a blue belt as of last week) Of course I ahve them work on basic things but as well I help them imrpove technique. U can be a teach effectively even at a lower belt level. Technique is technique and u know when something is wrong. Now I know alot more cause I had 7-8 months of one on one training before our program had some more adult students. I look at it as fine tuning. I actually like teaching more than anything else now that i have done it. I will say with only yellow and white belt students it isnt hard.

 

[Andrew Green]

When everyone is a master, no one is.

Which is why we ended up with Grand Masters and Sokes. Give it a few more years and I'm sure there will be Grand-Soke's....

 

[tradrockrat]

Once you are an instructor, that should be it. No fancy titles, no other ranks. At this point If you still need the carrot of further rank dangled in front of your face to motivate your training, then you don't deserve the rank that you have.

Sums it up perfectly. I can only believe that back when martial arts wasn't a commercial endeavor this was simply how it was done. Train until you're good enough to train others. Master your skills because that's the whole point.

We have a great story in Bando about belts. We don't claim this story to be historically accurate, but rather as a lesson to be learned about Martial Arts.

In the beginning, a student didn't need a belt, but as he trained hard, he burned a lot of weight and needed to keep his pants up. So he would tie a length of rope around his waist. The rope was white. As he continued to train hard, all of the throwing, falling and general rough training would leave grass stains upon his clothes and belt. It was now green. Later, as time passed, more and more sweat and dirt would accumulate upon the rope, turning it brown. It was only after a long time of really hard training that the students belt would turn a uniform black from all of the hard work put into his training. Usually by this time yeasrs had passed and the student had become a proficient practitioner, but of course some students would be better than others. However, by the time their belt was black, they had earned the respect of their fellow students and learned enough to help their teacher spread the knowledge of their art. They were now known as teachers.

We used the story as a way of explaining the importance of focusing on effort as opposed to aquiring rank. I would usually finish with, "cause if you really need a blackbelt all you have to do is buy one at the store ...or roll around in the mud."

 

[jdinca]

But you are also right, regarding our Instant Gratification society. Perhaps the martial arts can be an endeavor where this is not catered to. I bet for those who stick with it, it could be a more positive experience in shaping their life values. Problem for many people is, it becomes more difficult to keep a business alive if you aren't willing to play this game.

Ahh, but many in MA do do that. We suck 'em in and they begin the "Great Belt Race". But as they advance, the goal may still be the BB but the emphasis turns to the journey and the nonphysical aspects, as well as the physical. In other words, "making it a more positive experience in shaping their life values". They quite often don't figure this out until it's too late and their value system has already been changed.

Once a BB, hopefully, this lesson has been learned and applied. At our school, we make a big deal out of "Belt Presentations". Until you're a BB, that is. When a BB earns another degree, there's no fanfair, no ceremony, it just happens. They come in one day and there's another stripe on their belt. A very close friend of mine was awarded her 5th degree a couple of months ago and is now a Master in our system. Something we take quite seriously. Not many in the school know. The instructors didn't know for weeks, until word of mouth got it around.

 

[jdinca]

Now I say it depends on the individual and how they were taught and their understanding of MA. I taught maybe 3 classes as a purple belt in my TKD class when my Master was called away on urgent business. I taught a kids class and I taught the adult class.
My master is starting up his own school so I am his highest ranked student. (Now a blue belt as of last week) Of course I ahve them work on basic things but as well I help them imrpove technique. U can be a teach effectively even at a lower belt level. Technique is technique and u know when something is wrong. Now I know alot more cause I had 7-8 months of one on one training before our program had some more adult students. I look at it as fine tuning. I actually like teaching more than anything else now that i have done it. I will say with only yellow and white belt students it isnt hard.

I agree completely. It just happens that in our case we've formalized this process. A trainee can start as an orange belt but all they'll be doing is observing or making small corrections, such as a foot position. This will only be done with white and yellow belts. There are hour requirements as well as belt requirements to move up in the trainee system and be allowed to increase involvemnent in a class. By the time someone earns their instructors red belt, they have several hundred hours assisting as well as a couple of hundred hours of formalized instructor training. This is all in addition to working on their own belt material.

Regardless of how an instructor is trained, it's the individual and what they bring to the table that is the most important aspect.

 

[Flying Crane]

When a BB earns another degree, there's no fanfair, no ceremony, it just happens. They come in one day and there's another stripe on their belt.

Well, I'd say that's a step in the right direction.

True, in the beginning the lower ranks can be worthwhile as a motivator, and I have not suggested removing those ranks.

 

[AceHBK]

I agree completely. It just happens that in our case we've formalized this process. A trainee can start as an orange belt but all they'll be doing is observing or making small corrections, such as a foot position. This will only be done with white and yellow belts. There are hour requirements as well as belt requirements to move up in the trainee system and be allowed to increase involvemnent in a class. By the time someone earns their instructors red belt, they have several hundred hours assisting as well as a couple of hundred hours of formalized instructor training. This is all in addition to working on their own belt material.

Regardless of how an instructor is trained, it's the individual and what they bring to the table that is the most important aspect.

I understand that and my master says this will help get experience and hours I need. I found that I am picky as hell. I will nit pick like hell. I have learned that teaching a technique is easy but it is the application and getting the fundamentals down along with communicating what u are really trying to get across the student is the hard part. lol.

AND AS SOON AS I TYPED WHAT I SAID EARLIER......
MY MASTER CALLS AND ASKS CAN I TEACH THE KIDS AND ADULT CLASS TONIGHT...LOL!!

I have some things i wanna work on the adult class that I am looking fwd too. Kids class is a whole issue in itself. Teachings kids requires patience.

 

[Zepp]

I'm glad that I learned Tae Kwon Do under an organization where "master" is an honorary title, granted independently of rank. :boing1:

 

[TigerWoman]

I guess I was under the impression that a poom couldn't become a 1st dan until 18. Did the Kukkiwon change the rules? Just looked at the site, scroll to the bottom of the page:
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/simsa_eng4.asp?div=5

I couldn't regard an 19 yr. old as a master let alone as a good instructor. Maybe an assistant instructor. Putting in the time as a child does not equate to time in as an adult. I have difficulty with the maturity of some of our 14-15 black belts, sometimes I have to just tell one to go sit down instead of blabbering about how well he does stuff in front of parents who are trying to watch their children in class, and I often have to correct his instruction to another student because it has so little thought behind it.

But "master" rank is supposed to be to the level of having eight or so years under your belt as an apprentice instructor before becoming a school owner and testor of student rank as a master. But how many 19 yr. olds have schools that are up and running? No, they would have to teach still under the auspices of a seasoned older adult and probably also a master at the least. TW