That sounds like a promising round. I went looking for a jacketed semi-wadcutter (jacketed, with a flat, lead nose -- sort of a hunting round), like for my .357, and the guy at the sporting goods store was completely lost. But I do remember seeing the Golden saber there.
What's wrong with the .380?
- Thread starter thardey
- Start date
That sounds like a promising round. I went looking for a jacketed semi-wadcutter (jacketed, with a flat, lead nose -- sort of a hunting round), like for my .357, and the guy at the sporting goods store was completely lost. But I do remember seeing the Golden saber there.
That's exactly my thinking, as well. I'm not expecting to knock a man down with this thing -- but a gun is still a gun. Even with a .45 it still boils down to shot placement.
searcher
Senior Master
That is exactly why my CCH instructor says that you should not stop shooting until the threat is stopped.
Unless you shoot the guy in the medula oblongata, the guy can still function for 15-30 seconds after he is fatally wounded. He can be dead and still be able to harm you.
chinto
Senior Master
well you have less velocity and there for less energy in the same 9mm diameter slug then in a 9MM parabelum/luger cartridge.
in that .380 caliber, I have had very good function from a Walther PPK, and an old colt pocket pistol... but really its the very smallest I would go in a pistol for self defense given a choice.. if no choice I would go as low as a .32 acp (7.65mm) but you in my opinion should never go smaller then that! also do as the people in Delta force, and the S.A.S and G.S.G.9 and other elite forces do with 9mm caliber weapons, and always shoot at least 2 times in the "double tap". With the .32 caliber, I would suggest a minimum of 2 double taps together.
Jack Meower
Blue Belt
I have had a Walther .380 PPK/S for about 20 years now. Mine is stainless, and the Interarms version. I do not carry, but I have shot it frequently. It seemed to jam quite a bit for the first 100 rounds or so. I don't know if it just needed to be 'shot in' or if I was 'limp-wristing' it (probably a combination of both), but since then it has been perfectly reliable. It is also shockingly accurate for such a small pistol, and it points amazingly well.
I don't have a problem with a .380 as a self defense round myself. I do prefer FMJ rounds in it due to potential issues with lack of penetration, especially with heavy winter clothing. Besides, FMJ is cheaper and feeds better. As others have mentioned, shot placement is key.
We always want high power, high capacity, small size, reliability, accuracy in the same gun. A person just has to decide what is the best compromise for them, as there is no perfect firearm. Also, do not disregard how it feels in your hand.
Best of luck in your search.
I don't have a problem with a .380 as a self defense round myself. I do prefer FMJ rounds in it due to potential issues with lack of penetration, especially with heavy winter clothing. Besides, FMJ is cheaper and feeds better. As others have mentioned, shot placement is key.
We always want high power, high capacity, small size, reliability, accuracy in the same gun. A person just has to decide what is the best compromise for them, as there is no perfect firearm. Also, do not disregard how it feels in your hand.
Best of luck in your search.
chinto
Senior Master
the biggest problem I have with the weapon is the cartridge is to week and to small a bore diameter. in a pistol the most important thing is bore diameter. .380 cal/ 9mm kurtz is better then say a .32acp/7.65mm but not a huge amount. If you can hold the weapon and shoot it go for the biggest bore diameter you can! personally I prefer the .45 ACP and if I have to go smaller, I would not go below 9MM parabellum ever!
no pistol is going to have the velocity of a rifle, so bore diameter is what is going to get the job done. I am an ex medic and can tell you that if some one is shot with a pistol the only thing the medics need to know is the bore diameter, larger the bore the worse off the patient is!!!!!!
Um, what about the .357 Magnum? It's the same diameter as a .380 or a 9mm. It just has a lot more punch behind it, and a heavier bullet. There's got to be more to it than just the diameter of the bullet.
Combination of things, really.
Bore diameter does have a good bit of importance, since a 0.40" hole in someone is going to have more of an effect than a 0.355" hole.
However, what the bullet does once it's inside the target, has just as much, and probably more, importance. Bullet design is a critical aspect here, since today's premium hollowpoints have pretty much levelled the playing field, when it comes to cartridges of .38 Special +P, and anything more potent.
With today's premium designs, any of the serious defensive calibers will do the job, since such bullets are designed to expand at lower velocities than their older counterparts used to require. If anything, the developments in bullet designs have changed the way we think about ammo. Old "dirty words," such as "147 grain 9 mm hollowpoint," are no longer dirty, and some of the best performing designs are of the 147 grain subsonic 9 mm type (Federal's HST, Winchester's Ranger, Remington's Golden Saber, etc).
But... What happens when you're not using one of the above "serious defensive" calibers? If you're confident in being able to place your shots very accurately and consistently, then you're already way beyond most folks, and don't need advice on this matter. However, for the rest of us ordinary folks, we need to evaluate the gun, and ask if we're willing to sacrifice the extra margin of error when it comes to the better defensive calibers, just to have better portability.
With today's small firearms (Airweight J-frame revolvers, Kahr micro series, Rohrbaugh, Kel-Tec, etc), available in such serious defensive calibers, I simply prefer to stick with them. I find it hard to beat my Glock 26, stoked with 13 rounds of Winchester Ranger ammo (127 grain +P+), and that the ammo still has enough velocity to match a .357 magnum coming out of a snub nosed revolver.
In cases where I have to keep the gun concealed with a tucked shirt, and no overgarmets, that's where I'll use the S&W 342 (airweight), loaded with 5 rounds of Speer's 130 grain Gold Dot +P loads designed for shorter barrels.
The only lesser caliber that I carried was a .380 ACP (Sig P230), where i chose the heaviest premium hollowpoint available, that fed reliably (The Remington Golden Saber 102 grain), since penetration from a .380 ACP is going to be marginal.
Bore diameter does have a good bit of importance, since a 0.40" hole in someone is going to have more of an effect than a 0.355" hole.
However, what the bullet does once it's inside the target, has just as much, and probably more, importance. Bullet design is a critical aspect here, since today's premium hollowpoints have pretty much levelled the playing field, when it comes to cartridges of .38 Special +P, and anything more potent.
With today's premium designs, any of the serious defensive calibers will do the job, since such bullets are designed to expand at lower velocities than their older counterparts used to require. If anything, the developments in bullet designs have changed the way we think about ammo. Old "dirty words," such as "147 grain 9 mm hollowpoint," are no longer dirty, and some of the best performing designs are of the 147 grain subsonic 9 mm type (Federal's HST, Winchester's Ranger, Remington's Golden Saber, etc).
But... What happens when you're not using one of the above "serious defensive" calibers? If you're confident in being able to place your shots very accurately and consistently, then you're already way beyond most folks, and don't need advice on this matter. However, for the rest of us ordinary folks, we need to evaluate the gun, and ask if we're willing to sacrifice the extra margin of error when it comes to the better defensive calibers, just to have better portability.
With today's small firearms (Airweight J-frame revolvers, Kahr micro series, Rohrbaugh, Kel-Tec, etc), available in such serious defensive calibers, I simply prefer to stick with them. I find it hard to beat my Glock 26, stoked with 13 rounds of Winchester Ranger ammo (127 grain +P+), and that the ammo still has enough velocity to match a .357 magnum coming out of a snub nosed revolver.
In cases where I have to keep the gun concealed with a tucked shirt, and no overgarmets, that's where I'll use the S&W 342 (airweight), loaded with 5 rounds of Speer's 130 grain Gold Dot +P loads designed for shorter barrels.
The only lesser caliber that I carried was a .380 ACP (Sig P230), where i chose the heaviest premium hollowpoint available, that fed reliably (The Remington Golden Saber 102 grain), since penetration from a .380 ACP is going to be marginal.
INDYFIGHTER
Purple Belt
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I love my Kel-tec .380!!! Simple, fits in my pocket, lightweight and so far it's worked everytime I've pulled the trigger.
wade
Black Belt
Indy got it right the first time, "it fits in the pocket". You can have all the hand cannons in the world carrying 13 or more rounds that can punch through reinforced brick walls but if you can't carry it because of the size it's about as effective as, well, gee, not having it at all. IMHO, I would rather carry something that I can have with me every single day and every where I go no matter what I am wearing than something I have to dress for and decide whether it is appropriate or not. I get up, I get dressed, I check the magazine and the chamber, put it in my pocket and am ready to go. Don't have to think about what to wear or how I'm going to hide it cause the weather is 110 degrees and that damn coat or vest is going to look really strange at the beach. I have a 40 and and a 45 and love both of them dearly. Fun to shoot, make loud sounds and big holes. But they are both big and not easy to hide so very very rarely do I actually carry them. Funny thing, I've been out of the military since 1977 and been carrying all that time and I have never been in a gun battle. Makes you wonder doesn't it? Anyhoo, for all you that carry hand cannon, other than in war and for LEO's, how many of you have actually had to use your hand cannon in an actually situation?
Well, if you carry it in the front pocket, isn't that a little obvious? But, the mouseguns I've seen aren't easy do draw from the back pocket, unless you're using a pocket holster, but then the gun doesn't fit all the way into the pocket.
INDYFIGHTER
Purple Belt
I can carry it in the front pocket of my jeans, I can carry it in my back pocket if I'm not going to be sitting down. I also carry it in the front hand pockets of all my jackets. My biker coat has a leather pocket on the left inside that I use to lug my 9mm around in, I forget my .380 is even in there.
Not really. You do, though, have to be a bit careful about your wardrobe.
During the hot summer months, a S&W airweight J-frame or Kel Tec P3AT, can fit in a decent quality pocket holster. If the holster is any good, then it will conceal the bulge using a flat profile, and if a bulge is seen, then people will generally assume that someone's carrying a wallet or a phone in the front pocket.
If someone tries to take a detailed stare (and it will take the educated eye some time to determine for certain), you can always call the staring person a pervert, and that will stop them from staring.
A looser fitting pair of cargo shorts works well in these cases, as does a pair of looser fitting slacks / khaki's that have deeper pockets.
Something like these fine Mitch Rosen holsters are great for pocket carry:
http://www.mitchrosen.com/product_line/holsters/pocket_holsters/body_pocket_holsters.html
or even the cheaper "El Raton"
http://www.mitchrosen.com/product_line/holsters/express_line/body_express_line.html
Dare I even say, that I've even been comfortable using the cheap Desantis Nemesis...
INDYFIGHTER
Purple Belt
I'm kinda skinny so my pants don't fit very tight but I can have my hand on my gun in my front pocket and look as relaxed as can be. No one would ever know I was holding my kel-tec in my hand. It's almost scary to me how concealable it really is.
http://www.ericsiegmund.com/fireant/archivesmt/003394.html
http://www.ericsiegmund.com/fireant/archivesmt/003394.html
That makes sense.
The "Pocket holsters" I had seen were basically IWB holsters, so the handle stuck up above the clip. Now I see where the "hooks" catch in your pocket and hold the holster in place. That looks very doable.
I can also see how the holster would flatten out the rectangular shape, and "contour" in to the leg, so it wouldn't look so bulky.
Going into summer, often I wear hawaiian-style shirts untucked, so IWB works just fine, but there's no option for if I want to go a little nicer and tuck in the shirt, without wearing a jacket. I think I could make this work with the Khaki's and slacks I usually wear.
The "Pocket holsters" I had seen were basically IWB holsters, so the handle stuck up above the clip. Now I see where the "hooks" catch in your pocket and hold the holster in place. That looks very doable.
I can also see how the holster would flatten out the rectangular shape, and "contour" in to the leg, so it wouldn't look so bulky.
Going into summer, often I wear hawaiian-style shirts untucked, so IWB works just fine, but there's no option for if I want to go a little nicer and tuck in the shirt, without wearing a jacket. I think I could make this work with the Khaki's and slacks I usually wear.
chinto
Senior Master
I can tell you now that as an ex EMT that I would rather have some one who is hit say 2 or 3 times by a 357 then 1 or 2 times by a .45 ( depending on the wound sight of course as a head hit or hit to say the heart or inferior or superior aorta is kinda moot. )
bore diamiter is the major factor.! in a rifle or other weapon that can put a round down range at over 1900fps things can start to change and at over 2700 fps things do change a lot!
but in a 357/9mm kurtz or parubelum the extra velocity mainly translates into penetration... a .25 acp has been stopped by heavy winter clothing at times.... but heavier slugs and larger bore diameter are what it is about... 158 grains at say 850 fps beats 115 grains at 700 fps every day, and still beats it at 850 fps.. but its the bore diameter that makes the huge difference in a pistols velocity. the bigger and with that size comes weight the more damage and larger the wound channel.
True, that bigger can be better, if we're talking about ball ammo. After all, a .357 magnum will make a hole about 0.357" wide, and will probably make an exit hole of similar size, while a .45 ACP will do the same with a 0.451" diameter hole.
However, with today's jacketed hollowpoint ammunition, the playing field has been equalized. Take a look at Winchetser's ballistic's:
http://winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing_pg.aspx
Not much difference at all between a 9 mm and a .40.
Also, look at the Ranger T series:
http://winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing_t.aspx
Not much of a difference between 9 mm / .40 / .45 ACP.
Similar premium ammunition from any of the major manufacturers (Remington, Speer, Federal, Hornady) should perform similarly, too.
