What's Wrong with Environmentalism Today

elder999

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At forty-six, I am a tail-end baby boomer, a member of a generation that began with too much and quickly became accustomed to, and dependent upon, a way of life that was — and still is — destroying our natural and only home. I come from the N Y.suburbs, from the grid. I come from a place where — as author D.J. Waldie states — “the necessary illusion is predictability.”

The American Dream is a predictable illusion performed daily for the masses. It is the fantastical pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that keeps us bound to a life of conformity.Conformity in America today is the most dangerous peer-pressure of all. It lurks unseen as the primary enemy of our environment.

Our nation almost escaped an industrialized, conformist future when the hippies followed on the heels of the Beat Generation. They started communes and co-ops. They organically farmed and gave birth to their children in their homes. They had a vision of a better, simpler, “greener” way of living, but, for one reason or another, the hippie movement that embodied such a drastic change of lifestyle, and a different way of thinking, simply fizzled out. The majority of non-conformists returned to mainstream society with the idealistic notion that true societal change could be wrought from within.

Youthful idealism, unfortunately, has a short lifespan within the ranks of the social order, because it is there that hardcore realism prevails. When the two meet, we become — as author John Nichols, in his memoir, An American Child Supreme, says —
“Trapped. Caught between capitalism and democracy.”
Nichols goes on to ask the astute question of our time: “How did a person live in just the democracy part of America?”

How indeed?

We are all caught between capitalism and democracy. This is our American fate, the mind-boggling conundrum we must deal with-and yes, while the nation is a republic(though a democratic one) and while capitalism has demonstrable good, it's the marriage of the two that is leading to what I believe to be fascism in this country, where the only votes that count are the ones of corporations. It is also the true dilemma of American environmentalism.

Thoreau’s eloquent words were misinterpreted. One heartfelt sentence fooled us into believing that if we preserved pieces of wildness, we could continue with — and justify — our current way of life. As long as we were “saving” certain parts of the environment, it became okay to accumulate frequent-flier miles and put fifty thousand miles on the car every year. Sanctuaries, refuges, preserves — call them what you will — they were long thought to be shelters from the coming storm of increasing industrialization, urbanization, over-population, pollution and consumerism.
They were not, nor were they ever, the preservation of the world.

American environmentalism is failing us because we are forgetting its single-most important message, something David Brower once said: “We have to drop our standard of living, so that people a thousand years from now can have any standard of living at all.”

It was over thirty years ago that the “Archdruid” said those words. He didn’t give examples. It seemed obvious what he meant.
American environmentalism today is the ironic and ubiquitous joke of a $50,000 SUV wearing a Sierra Club bumpersticker. It is a perpetual money-machine, a convoluted mass of non-profit organizations competing for the largest piece of American remorse.

We’re befuddled and mixed up; we think that the underlying philosophy of environmentalism is about “saving” a specific place, rather than how we choose to live in a certain place. We feel guilty about what our American standard of living is doing to the environment.

And we should.. We are co-conspirators in acid rain, global warming, ozone depletion and so much more. Guilt becomes remorse. Remorse becomes a check in the mail to “save the wilds.”

Those well-intentioned donations from private individuals, however, are not enough. Our new breed of environmentalism is an ever-growing entity that requires constant feeding beyond what mere individuals can offer, so it teams up with corporate America and subverts the “save the wilds” message into something like this internet ad: “Saving the great places — Chevy Silverado at work with the Nature Conservancy.”

That’s right, the marriage of a gas-guzzling pickup and an environmental organization. Click; a “special advertising section” pops up, informing me that there are millions of acres of wetlands lost each year and that they are crucial to the survival of wildlife. They are also “a key to our own survival.”

General Motors is a big supporter,” the ad continues, “donating cash and Silverado pickup trucks as part of a 10-year, $10 million support program.” Off to the side is a picture of a shiny 2003 Silverado, with the caption, “A Chevy Silverado is the first tool the Nature Conservancy reaches for when there’s work to do.”

Really? What about a good old-fashioned shovel? :rolleyes:

The ad goes on: “With room for six in its extended cab, Silverado 4x4s get field biologists and agronomy experts through muddy terrain [it’s wetlands, after all] without tearing up the landscape.”

How is that possible? Does it hover above the ground? And here comes the kicker:

“General Motors is dedicated to protecting human health, natural resources and the global environment. This commitment is evident in GM’s relationship with The Nature Conservancy, the world’s leading private international conservation organization.”

I wanted to get this mixed message straight in my mind: buy a V8-powered pickup — save wetlands; support GM — donate to the Nature Conservancy. This seemed strikingly similar to the oxymoronic Vietnam War philosophy of destroying the village in order to save it.

Bill McKibben, in his book, The End of Nature, argues the premise that nature and wildness are no longer segregated from the surrounding cities and industrialization. The natural world still left in our parks and preserves isn’t natural at all; it is tainted and changed by what man has done. The culprits, he says — carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, chlorofluorocarbons — “are the result not of some high and distant drama, a few grand explosions, but of a billion explosions of a hundred million pistons every second, near and far and insidiously common.”

Think of all those GM pistons pounding away, dedicated to protecting the global environment!

The President and CEO of the Nature Conservancy is Steven J. McCormick. He is a lawyer.Washington Post reporters Joe Stephens and David B. Ottaway spent months looking into the compensation of Mr. McCormick. In the end, they published an article subtitled, “Conservancy underreported President’s pay and perks of office.” Their investigative piece revealed a tangled web of deceit and misinformation, but the gist of it is contained in this one paragraph: “McCormick ultimately provided information showing that his compensation and benefits for 2002 totaled about $420,000.”

I somehow expect our environmental “leaders” to live and behave a little more like Gandhi than some corporate executive, a little more like Jesus than a wealthy television evangelist. The profession of “environmentalist” should not be one that is hypocritically grounded in the white-collar world of $1,000-suits and million-dollar mansions. Lest you think that I’m highlighting only an anomalous example of our country’s environmental groups, here’s something to consider: In a 1994 report, the top twelve environmental organizations in the United States — the Sierra Club among them — were listed as having assets in excess of $1.2 billion. Major donors to these top twelve included Arco, Boeing, Dow Chemical, Exxon, Weyerhaeuser, to name just a few. The average salary of the top executives in the groups listed was just under $175,000. And that, mind you, was a decade ago.

Mainstream environmentalism has become — exactly because it is “mainstream” — one giant, ridiculous oxymoron. It has become part and parcel of what it opposes. It is in bed with the very forces it claims to fight against. It is wholly and happily fixed in the capitalistic part of America.

Why have Brower’s words disappeared into the ether? What happened to living simply so others could simply live? What caused so many of us to give in, and be taken in so easily?

Metaphorically speaking, maybe we just got tired of being on the bus. Public transportation of that kind no longer suited us. The more that stepped off, the harder it became for the ones that stayed, until eventually only a bewildered driver remained, piloting the empty bus further down the road while pondering the good excuses everyone had used to disembark.

I’m afraid our big brains might have us heading toward some Kurt Vonnegut future where humans eventually devolve into listless, flatulating seals. Ironically, the very thing that allowed us to survive and prosper as a species — our remarkable adaptability — is the same thing that is doing us in. We have adapted to breathe foul air, drink chemically treated water and eat food that isn’t natural or healthy. As the man says, “So it goes.”

But wait, I don’t mean to be so cynical. Our future isn’t yet written in stone. It’s not too late to change. Not quite.

To fix what ails our environment requires, to a large degree, going backward in order to move forward; using less in order to have more. We must give up certain things; sort out the beneficial technology from the destructive dross.

True environmentalism means sacrifice. Not the false sacrifice of monetary donations to today’s wealthy environmental orgs, but the true surrender of the mainstream ease and affluence in which we find ourselves. It requires a substantial change in how we view the place where we live — it requires a new, long overdue cultural revolution.

Saving the environment isn’t rocket science or something it takes a Ph.D. to explain. It doesn’t require years of academic studies and sheaves of economic charts and graphs. It doesn’t involve schmoozing and lobbying in Washington. It doesn’t even begin in the voting booth.

Saving the environment doesn’t require millions of dollars, just millions of people voluntarily choosing a simpler way of life. It begins right here, right now, with individuals willing to put their so-called environmental beliefs on the line.

Less is more. Backward is forward.

We all have to drop our standard of living so that people a hundred years from now can have any standard of living at all.
 

Sukerkin

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A thoughtful epistle there, elder.

I'd just add that one major league 'exit' from our current path is to simply rethink the 'consumer' economy'.

I'm a graduate economist and we've known for a long time that we can't continue the way we are - it's just that those that rake in the mega-bucks don't want things to change as waste, over-consumption, fashion and built-in 'product lifespan' are how they made their trillions.

It is possible to maintain a high-tech society without continuous 'growth' (which actually means an ever increasing consumption of resources) but it requires a major restructuring of how we do things. An obstacle in the way of that change is that, to American/Uber-Capitalist ears, it sounds all too much like Communism and thus acceptance, even by those that would benefit most, is going to be resisted (until such time as the whole debt-supported facade collapses and there is no other choice anyhow).

Sadly, I'm at work (my only Net access right now) so I can't go into the detail such a subject deserves ... as I have to get back on the Capitalist treadmill :D.
 

Makalakumu

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Our "consumer/waste based" economy will be veiwed in the future as one of the greatests wastes of resources in the history of humanity.

The wealth of our planet is being collected in landfills. Our descendents will dig through our refuse as their way of life.
 

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Our "consumer/waste based" economy will be veiwed in the future as one of the greatests wastes of resources in the history of humanity.

The wealth of our planet is being collected in landfills. Our descendents will dig through our refuse as their way of life.

IMHO, this is part of the problem with Environmentalism. Viewing the future as a post-apocolyptic nightmare is not a very good way to start the conversation. I think people in general understand the issue. Its been drilled into the younger generation for many years by the time they graduate.

I've heard horror stories of environmental nuts putting metal wires/fences on trees scheduled for cutting. Chainsaw/machine cuts them, ruins the blades and potentially kills workers. I've heard of Wackos out in CA torching Hummer dealerships. I'm sorry, this is no way to have a legitimate conversation.

If we want a real solution, its going to take time. Economies/ways of life do not change over night. This is NOT only a problem with the US. We are a significant problem, but unless other nations (read China, India and new economies) jump online, its all for naught. As upset as it makes me to say this, its likely we will need some global restrictions/legislation in order to get things done... perhaps a requirement for minimal legislation/action before entry into the UN or any other international body? Perhaps international trading restrictions until compliance? Considering how its difficult to enforce such things, it would be tough...

On a more personal level, I think its easy to point fingers at "big business" while not taking personal responsibility. I'm sure alot of you guys out there are doing things, but I think that being totally environmentally responsible is the exception in the US.
 

mrhnau

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Well written. I tried to cherry pick some key points to discuss....

“Trapped. Caught between capitalism and democracy.”
Nichols goes on to ask the astute question of our time: “How did a person live in just the democracy part of America?”
The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I tend to view them as complementary.

It might require an economy not being totally free, but we have not had a totally free economy for a long time now. The government can break up monopolies, target tax breaks for certain industries, resurrect non-profitable but vital industries, etc.. I think alot of things can be encouraged by the government, though perhaps stiffer legislation/taxation may be required to push in certain directions. Our economy is flexible enough to adapt given adequate time.

I wanted to get this mixed message straight in my mind: buy a V8-powered pickup — save wetlands; support GM — donate to the Nature Conservancy. This seemed strikingly similar to the oxymoronic Vietnam War philosophy of destroying the village in order to save it.

Think of all those GM pistons pounding away, dedicated to protecting the global environment!
So, you want to save some wetlands. This takes study. You need to understand what is in the wetlands, including the species and potential risks that man imposes. How do you suggest this occurs? Should we swim out there? Take notes on papyrus? Use a bicycle to travel the hundreds of miles to get close to the wetlands? What happens when you want to start enforcing things? how will you verify enforcement? Just trust? Surely thats going to require transportation.

Mainstream environmentalism has become — exactly because it is “mainstream” — one giant, ridiculous oxymoron. It has become part and parcel of what it opposes. It is in bed with the very forces it claims to fight against. It is wholly and happily fixed in the capitalistic part of America.
Someone needs to take up the banner of environmentalism. Why not the ones you claim cause the big problems? Are not the major car industries making hybrids now? Hydrogen based research? Researching new technologies for energy consumption? Think these are all being done by isolated individuals?

Why have Brower’s words disappeared into the ether? What happened to living simply so others could simply live? What caused so many of us to give in, and be taken in so easily?
Hey, I'm all for simple living (though perhaps not the type you would desire). Many times though, its not exactly possible. Man needs to eat. Eating requires money. Money requires working. Unless you move off and isolate yourself and become self-sufficient you can't easily do this. Even isolation requires an initial investment.

Metaphorically speaking, maybe we just got tired of being on the bus. Public transportation of that kind no longer suited us. The more that stepped off, the harder it became for the ones that stayed, until eventually only a bewildered driver remained, piloting the empty bus further down the road while pondering the good excuses everyone had used to disembark.
*Nods*

But wait, I don’t mean to be so cynical. Our future isn’t yet written in stone. It’s not too late to change. Not quite.
Don't mean to be cynical? Of course you do! You just stated it nicely LOL.
Future is not set in stone of course, just people tend to disagree in the course for the future.

True environmentalism means sacrifice. Not the false sacrifice of monetary donations to today’s wealthy environmental orgs, but the true surrender of the mainstream ease and affluence in which we find ourselves. It requires a substantial change in how we view the place where we live — it requires a new, long overdue cultural revolution.
And environmentalist are the ones we should listen to for instructions on how to live. The rest of soceity is obviously too ignorant to know how to live. :wink:

It doesn’t even begin in the voting booth.
Yes it does. Forcing people to change their lives is not the way to go. That goes by a few different names: Prison, dictatorship, lack of freedom.

People can change if they desire. Until given significant motivation to do so, many will choose not to.

Saving the environment doesn’t require millions of dollars, just millions of people voluntarily choosing a simpler way of life. It begins right here, right now, with individuals willing to put their so-called environmental beliefs on the line.
Absolutely. However, individuals alone will not change everything. If 10% of our nation goes stone-age, that leaves 90% consumers left driving the economy. Its not a US only problem either. The US could go off of the environmental grid, but India and China are revving up.

Less is more. Backward is forward.
I know what you are trying to say, just it sure sounds funny LOL

We all have to drop our standard of living so that people a hundred years from now can have any standard of living at all.

I'm no fan of going back to pre-industrialized times. We have made alot of steps forwards. We are now understanding -some- of the consequences of that progress, and I think steps can be taken to adjust the track. I don't think this requires re-entry into the stone ages though.
 

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The problem with environmentalism, as with most causes, is that those who get involved with invariably turn it into a religion. This turns off the people who are not converts and seriously degrades the power of their argument.

I took my family to the circus one evening. There were young people with an unusual approach to hygeine outside handing out flyers critical of the circus' treatment of animals. Had they left the bongo drums and hyperbolic slogans at home, they might have had a better chance of getting their point across. As it was, people avoided them like hobos. From my perspective, the only thing distinguishing them from the guy with the megaphone who wants your soul for Jaysus is that their flyers aren't produced by Chick.

Oh, one other thing - pointing your finger at people and denouncing them as evil/greedy/stupid is an ineffective way to change minds. If you're content to preach to the choir, let 'er rip. But if you actually want to convince people, you have to wipe the spittle from your lip once in a while.
 

Makalakumu

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IMHO, this is part of the problem with Environmentalism. Viewing the future as a post-apocolyptic nightmare is not a very good way to start the conversation.

The problem is that if we don't change our ways, all we are left with is the post-apocolyptic nightmare scenarios. Most people don't have the intestinal fortitude to deal with that sort of thing and prefer to act as if the problem doesn't exist. Or worse, they roll the dice and bet that The Rapture will bail them out...aka James Watts.

Real solutions exist to deal with many of the environmental problems that we face. Now we just need to courage to make them happen.
 

Cruentus

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I see three problems with environmentalists today; and why the environmentalist movement is failing:

1. Lack of professionalism.
2. A reductionist mentality.
3. A predominate belief that a capitalist/democratic republic can't be environmentally friendly.

I will go through these by the numbers:

1. I am an independent voter, but years ago I did some work with a local green party chapter. It had to do with an environmental issue in this state, among other things. They were good people who meant well. But, many of them fit that 70's non-conformist archtype of the "hippy," unshaven, hemp wearing kind. Nothing wrong with that, except when it came to doing actionable stuff. Many of them wanted to do a lot stuff, and they wanted to jump on a lot of causes that were, to be frank, a waste of time. Most of them were more motivated to hold a sign up and yell something rather then do some research, or write a letter.

Now, this is not everyone in the green party. There were a few state level people, like college professors and attorneys and business people, who were very professional and could make a difference. But these weren't the majority. The people on the ground floor, although well meaning, often give the causes a bad image.

The thing is, if your a "wolf," sometimes you've got to wear sheep's clothing to get things done. When you approach influential people, you need to do so in a professional manner, showing them respect. If your presenting something in a congress or senate hearing, or through a letter, or on the street even, you will get a lot further approaching them with respect and professionalism - they are likely to show you respect in return, and they might actually listen to what you have to say.

Years ago, drilling for oil in the Great Lakes was actually on the table here in Michigan. So, I went to a Senate hearing. I had done a ton of research, and I put together a clear and concise packet for all of the Senators on the panel. Many of them were republican and conservative. I dressed conservatively (suit and tie), and when I got up to the podium, I presented the facts in a CALM, clear, and concise manner. I even received an e-mail after the hearing from one of the Senators who read my packet, and really appreciated my presentation.

Some of my other environmentalist friends choose to picket the hearing, and protest, rather then actually put together a coherent thought. Some "environmentalist" did actually choose to speak, but rather then giving a professional presentation they choose poorly researched and emotionally charged talking points. I even remember one character actually resorted to "chanting" during his speech.

So, which do method do you think was more effective? Professionalism, or a bud leaf T-shirt while yelling incoherent blather?

After I gave my presentation, I had more then once person congratulate me. More then one of my environmentalist peers had said that they were really worried when I got up to speak, because I had such a conservative and demure appearance and presentation, that they were afraid that I was in favor of oil drilling!

Well, that fact says a lot right there. It is pretty sad when the image that environmentalists have of themselves can't be a professional one.

Things are changing, though, and more and more environmentalist are beginning to understand that there are more effective means of getting things done. We just need to continue that trend. Because there is enough scientific research and facts to back up a need for living cleaner, and having a cleaner infrastructure. It is better to use that research and a little respect to get things done. A well written e-mail will go further then a poorly written picket sign on any day.

2. There seems to be this thought that we have to "give up" our current lifestyle in order to be environmentally friendly. That we have to turn back the clock somehow, and go back to living off the land like our ancestors once did. This reductionist attitude can often borderline ridiculousness.

Most normal people look at reductionism and basically says, "no way am I going to do that," so they turn away from really living clean, or supporting environmentalism. And the fact is, to expect that we will all live these reductionist lifestyles, and that we will "give up" technology and so forth, is unrealistic. People who view a world like this are in fantasy land.

Once we have moved forward technologically, pending a catastrophy, there is no turning back. And that is a fact.

So, what CAN we do? We move technology forward so that we can live cleaner lives, and have a cleaner infrastructure, while actually improving our lifestyles and businesses in the process. And, we now have the technology to really begin doing this. And some have already begun.

Check out the Hearst Tower in NY: http://www.hearstcorp.com/tower/

This is a beautiful 46 story building that is completely Green. This is probably the cleanest building in the world right now; it is almost a completely self-containing environment. It is incredibly efficient, clean, and luxurious and classy. And, it would be a great place to work.

This is our future, folks. More buildings like this. More houses like this on a smaller scale. More cars that run on alternative fuels. More energy saving lifestyles; particularly more office workers doing the bulk of their work from home offices.

This is our future. And, we aren't talking about "going backwards" and "giving up" technological advances. We are talking about "moving forward" and using our technology to live better, cleaner lifestyles.

If the public and businesses alike could really see the potential for our future here, rather then characterizing being environmentally safe with "reductionism," then more would be invested in moving us into a new era of more technological yet cleaner lifestyles.

3. Being good for the environment can mean being good for the economy as well. We need to stop separating ourselves from the economy; because we ARE a PART of the economy, no matter which commune we'd like to move too.

And for us to survive, we need to have a clean environment. This means that for our ECONOMY AS A WHOLE to survive, we also need it clean. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Yet, everyone treats them as such on both sides of the issue. Environmentalists demonize corporations and government, and talk about how the corps. control the gov. through evil money and greed, and that the corps. should just stop being greedy and give up some of the wealth to save our environment, and the gov. officials should stop being so greedy and letting the corps influence their decisions through cash, and so on, and so on.

Sound familiar? By demonizing corporations, government officials, and capitalism, then it is easy for environmentalist to mope around, meet in basements, and feel real powerless. And what do powerless people do? Decide to be "non-conformist, man" while coming up with really cool chants and picket signs. They get to meet and talk about how screwed up everything is because of these omniscient faceless enemies called evil corporations who are only interested in money and screwing everyone and destroying our planet. Then they get create one unrealistic scenario after another regarding how things would have to be for the world to be a cleaner place. And since the scenario's are so unrealistic, the only thing that these hopeless souls can then go do is smoke a dubie and rally at the nearest McDonalds or State Capital.

Well, this is probably the biggest reason why the environmentalists have been losing the battle.

That is not to say that there isn't greed out there, or that our system can't improve. But what we can decide is if we want to focus on the negative and be victims? Or be heroes, a bit more positive, and find creative ways to bridge the gap between the economy and being environmentally friendly?

Because we as individuals need a clean environment to survive, so do corporations. And, there is actually money in being environmentally friendly. So, where it may not be profitable for one entity to be clean in a situation, it will ALWAYS be more profitable for someone, somewhere to be cleaner. So what you do is pit one entity against the other. It is very simple to do, and effective. When even the most conservative of politician sees that it is more profitable overall, or in a different instance, to be clean, then you win.

This is why there aren't oil drilling derricks in Michigan right now. It wasn't because an oil spill could ruin our pretty beachfront view. It was because oil drilling in the great lakes, although profitable for oil companies, was a detriment to the many industries like the pharmaceutical, agricultural, fishing, and tourist industry; all industries that need fresh water to survive. Even allowing what would be considered "acceptable discharge" into the lakes would not only potentially ruin them, but it would destroy these industries in the process. Like I said, businesses in one way or the other, need a clean environment too.

When I handed the Senators my packet and demonstrated to them in my presentation that the economy, with all of these other industries, would be harmed in the long run, I could simply tell by the looks on their faces that we had won. We effectively pitted one industry against a whole bunch of others. If, by chance, some Senators were in big oils pockets (and in Michigan, they weren't), we would have simply alerted the other corporations of these industries that would be harmed, and they would have effectively duked it out and won anyway.

It is rare that pitting one industry against another can't be done to help environmental causes. Most environmental problems can be solved this way, I believe.

It is the corporations with government that will come up with the technology, the alternative resources, and the infrastructure to lead cleaner lives. We just have to realize that money is the language that they speak. So, as consumers and workers, we have the power to push things in that direction, making it profitable to live green and clean.

Hearst Co. didn't make that building for charity. They did it because they are going to make a lot of money, and save a lot of money in that building because of it's efficiency.

The sooner that the majority of the environmentalists and capitalists alike realize that capitalism, our democratic republic, and living cleanly can work together, the more rapidly we'll see progress.

These three things. That might be all it takes. But I know that if we can change these three things, then we for sure will actually move more rapidly towards saving the environment for our future generations.
 

Sukerkin

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A most excellently presented post my friend. If you make presentations like that on a regular basis then I can see why you helped win the day on the Michigan oil drilling :D.

The only thing (again :eek:) that I can say in addition to your words is that, economically, the current system cannot survive, regardless of whether it cleans up it's environmental act or not.

The large corporations amass huge quantities of 'money' to their coffers and could indeed be persuaded to utilise this wealth for environmental capitalism - the problem is that the whole system is not sustainable (other than by getting 'off-world and opening up other resource stockpiles).

That is because the economic models operational at the moment rely on the continuous consumption of resources and continuous growth. This is exacerbated by the international banks inflation of the money supply, requiring more and more production and consumption to keep pace with the rising debt burden that the national economies carry.

Like I said above, I'm a qualified economist so I tend to think in terms relevant to that frame of reference, even tho' I fully believe that we need to tend to the environment we live in {because otherwise there'll be no need to worry about the fiscal side of things for very much longer :lol:}.
 

Makalakumu

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Paul, I agree with your post as a whole, but I think your point regarding environmental "reductionism" fails to take into account that we MUST reduce the amount of energy we consume. This will have an affect on our standard of living. There is no way around that.
 

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Paul, I agree with your post as a whole, but I think your point regarding environmental "reductionism" fails to take into account that we MUST reduce the amount of energy we consume. This will have an affect on our standard of living. There is no way around that.

Reduction of energy does not necessarily imply reduction of standard of living, just means a different method of living. I think Tulisan stated it very eloquently.

I don't even agree with the premise of needing a reduction of energy usage. If we can effectively harness solar power, nuclear fusion technology, alternate energy cars in a clean way, why should we reduce our energy consumption? Why not just use our energy in a more efficient manner w/ energy that was produced in a cleaner way?

These statements is so true...

Tulisan said:
Most normal people look at reductionism and basically says, "no way am I going to do that," so they turn away from really living clean, or supporting environmentalism. And the fact is, to expect that we will all live these reductionist lifestyles, and that we will "give up" technology and so forth, is unrealistic. People who view a world like this are in fantasy land.

And for us to survive, we need to have a clean environment. This means that for our ECONOMY AS A WHOLE to survive, we also need it clean. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
 
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elder999

elder999

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Reduction of energy does not necessarily imply reduction of standard of living, just means a different method of living. I think Tulisan stated it very eloquently.

I don't even agree with the premise of needing a reduction of energy usage. If we can effectively harness solar power, nuclear fusion technology, alternate energy cars in a clean way, why should we reduce our energy consumption? Why not just use our energy in a more efficient manner w/ energy that was produced in a cleaner way?

These statements is so true...

In the end, reduction of energy usage on the individual level equates with a reduction of what we call our "standard of living"; it simply will, as in the case of gas rationing during WWII-and it will spill over into a variety of areas of life that we've gotten used to, like being able to purchase certain fruits all year round-it's a long list, and I won't bore you with it, but life is going to change whether you reduce usage or not.

And, as an expert in the field, I can say that controlled nuclear fusion technology isn't going to be supplying us with electricity for at least 30 and probably closer to 50 years.
 

Sukerkin

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Very sad to hear that last bit, elder - I had hopes that the nuke boys would sort fusion out fairly soon :(.

We had a televised controlled fusion 'event' over here a number of years ago (yes, I've seen fusion plasma with my own eyes :D) and then nothing since.

At the time they said that sustaining the contained reaction was the tricky part as instabilities crept in and snuffed the 'fusing' but they reckoned they'd have that sorted in a few years ...

Without that energy replacement, then we'll keep on burning up the fossil fuels (and that's an insane thing to do with something so useful as oil that we can't replace easily).
 

mrhnau

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In the end, reduction of energy usage on the individual level equates with a reduction of what we call our "standard of living"; it simply will, as in the case of gas rationing during WWII-and it will spill over into a variety of areas of life that we've gotten used to, like being able to purchase certain fruits all year round-it's a long list, and I won't bore you with it, but life is going to change whether you reduce usage or not.

urgh. Thats kind of my point. Lets say you start driving a car that consumes 1/10 the energy to drive. Has your standard of living decreased? Or if you develop washers and dryers that use hardly any energy? Has your standard of living decreased? Or if you develop a house that is incredibly efficient? Has your standard of living decreased? I think not.

My second statement dealt with the usage of energy. Energy consumption != bad. usage of environmentally friendly energy > usage of "dirty" energy.

Combine the two principles. You have an incredibly efficient house/lifestyle that uses environmentally friendly energy. Whats the problem? Why must energy conservation/green energy be painful? Is there some deeper issue here, where you think for something to be good it must hurt?

And, as an expert in the field, I can say that controlled nuclear fusion technology isn't going to be supplying us with electricity for at least 30 and probably closer to 50 years.
Assuming that is correct, its still something worth pursuing. Other technologies will be coming online within that period (I assume), so fusion would be considered more of a long term solution, but one worth investing in.
 
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elder999

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urgh. Thats kind of my point. Lets say you start driving a car that consumes 1/10 the energy to drive. Has your standard of living decreased? Or if you develop washers and dryers that use hardly any energy? Has your standard of living decreased? Or if you develop a house that is incredibly efficient? Has your standard of living decreased? I think not.

My second statement dealt with the usage of energy. Energy consumption != bad. usage of environmentally friendly energy > usage of "dirty" energy.

Combine the two principles. You have an incredibly efficient house/lifestyle that uses environmentally friendly energy. Whats the problem? Why must energy conservation/green energy be painful? Is there some deeper issue here, where you think for something to be good it must hurt?


Assuming that is correct, its still something worth pursuing. Other technologies will be coming online within that period (I assume), so fusion would be considered more of a long term solution, but one worth investing in.

I built a house that uses geothermal heating and cooling, photovoltaics for the well and house water pressure. I have an energy-efficient washer and dryer, as well as an energy efficient stove, solar heated hot water (augmented by gas) and a capacity to take my home completely off-grid if I care to do so. I have more than one diesel vehicle set up to run off greasel, and our diesel-generator (an absolute necessity in the mountains of New Mexico-where I live is more like the forests of Colorado than the deserts most people imagine) runs on greasel as well.

Your "energy-efficient" vehicle doesn't exist. Hybrids basically get the same gas mileage as their non-hybrid equivalents-in some cases a little lower-when driven on the highway. They're geat for urban areas, but if your going to do hghway driving, your probably-and the world is probably better off with a regular Honda Civic. I tried one for a year, and it jujst wasn't worth it. And, in spite of some promising advances, an all-electric car is still too far away-not to mention that all of it's materials, transport and assembly will require the use of fossil fuels-to make electricity, and to drive the ships, planes, trains and trucks to get them there. The same is true of virtually everything I've done in the way of self-suficiency (and this is what it was really all about for me, not saving the planet) : it all got delivered by trucks, and/or traveled by train. Even the coal-which is abundant if problematic-that is used in power plants more and more these days, is tranported by diesel driven trains, except for a few cases where the plant is next to its own mine, and even then diesel is used for mining the coal.

We are basically stuck at the end of a petroleum based economy. Everything you eat, everything you read,everything you wear, everything you do-even, for most of you, the water that you drink, is dependent upon petroleum products, and, for various reaons, that's not going to change any time soon-and certainly not soon enough. In the meantime, we'll continue to consume-we'll do exactly what the President told us to do after 9/11, and go out and shop...his stated goal, and that of his corporate, petro-puppet masters, is that the "American way of life not change." They know, of course, that it will, but not until they'e wrung every ounce of petro-profit out of the world that they can-whatevr the costs, both to us as consumers and to the environment.
 

Cruentus

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Your "energy-efficient" vehicle doesn't exist....

We are basically stuck at the end of a petroleum based economy.

Only in as much as we perceive we are "stuck."

Energy effecient vehicles and petroleum suppliments (hemp anyone?) do exist; what doesn't is the infastructure.

But the infastructure won't change until our minds do.

But just think for a minute what it would be like to have an agriculturally based energy structure? It be efficent, good for the economy, we would pollute less, and we would replace the carbon dioxide/oxegen balance and clean the air along the way. We just need to think bigger then we do on this issue.

Here is a cute "students version" article on alternative fuels, with links:

http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/transportation/alcohols.html

Oh...this stuff exists. But the longer we collectively pigeon hole our thinking, the longer it will take to impliment the technology we have, and the longer we will put off creating better technology...
 

Makalakumu

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Reduction of energy does not necessarily imply reduction of standard of living, just means a different method of living. I think Tulisan stated it very eloquently.

Yes, it will. As we reduce the amount of energy in our lives, we reduce the amount of work we can accomplish. This doesn't necessarily mean that our quality of life will diminish.

I don't even agree with the premise of needing a reduction of energy usage. If we can effectively harness solar power, nuclear fusion technology, alternate energy cars in a clean way, why should we reduce our energy consumption?

All of these technologies require massive energy inputs in order to create...much less maintain.

Why not just use our energy in a more efficient manner w/ energy that was produced in a cleaner way?

Hey, good idea! :)
 

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