What's with Unrealistic (Fake) Martial Arts?

drewtoby

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I'm not talking about how MMA wannabees call Tae Kwon Do (or any TMA for that matter) unrealistic, I'm talking about arts like Yellow Bamboo.

Just how many of these arts are out there? Do you know any of them? How did they grow? And how did they fall? Or are they still out there?

And are there any out there that actually have an aspect of it work?

I wish I could shoot Chi Balls...

:eek:verkill:
 

Takai

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1.10.3 No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting.

It is not our mission to out and expose frauds or decide who "sucks". Such discussions rarely lead anywhere other than to headaches, and lawsuits.
 
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drewtoby

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[/FONT][/B]

Thanks. I'm just curious about how many styles there are like this, and how they formed, rose, and fell. Don't mean to bash.

I also wish to know if any have any proven aspect to it.
 
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K-man

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I'm not talking about how MMA wannabees call Tae Kwon Do (or any TMA for that matter) unrealistic, I'm talking about arts like Yellow Bamboo.

Just how many of these arts are out there? Do you know any of them? How did they grow? And how did they fall? Or are they still out there?

And are there any out there that actually have an aspect of it work?

I wish I could shoot Chi Balls...
I think you need to carefully distinguish between people who deliberately distort the truth and those who genuinely practise martial arts with an internal aspect.

I have seen top level exponents in China demonstrating their internal powers and have no doubt that at high level training they have something quite special. Koichi Tohei started the Ki Society and Ki Aikido after he was stopped by the principals of Aikikai from teaching internal aspects within that style.

In actual fact I joined this forum after I first came across 'Ki' to see how many others on the forum had it in their training. The resulting discussion was quite divisive with some labelling Chi/Ki as BS and others who were training with it cautiously saying that it is real. Even within those who train with Chi/Ki there are many different ways that people understand it.

Chi balls to me are probably in the realm of fantasy, 'no touch' knockouts I have never seen, apart from video, and I would not think they had any place in RBSD even if they were possible. But hard Ki in training and soft Ki in training, yes I see it all the time.
:asian:
 

RTKDCMB

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I think you need to carefully distinguish between people who deliberately distort the truth and those who genuinely practise martial arts with an internal aspect.

I have seen top level exponents in China demonstrating their internal powers and have no doubt that at high level training they have something quite special. Koichi Tohei started the Ki Society and Ki Aikido after he was stopped by the principals of Aikikai from teaching internal aspects within that style.

In actual fact I joined this forum after I first came across 'Ki' to see how many others on the forum had it in their training. The resulting discussion was quite divisive with some labelling Chi/Ki as BS and others who were training with it cautiously saying that it is real. Even within those who train with Chi/Ki there are many different ways that people understand it.

Chi balls to me are probably in the realm of fantasy, 'no touch' knockouts I have never seen, apart from video, and I would not think they had any place in RBSD even if they were possible. But hard Ki in training and soft Ki in training, yes I see it all the time.
:asian:

I think Chi or Ki is more of a concept that explains things like physics, the effects of adrenaline and conditioning and biology rather than as a separate physical phenomenon.
 

punisher73

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I'm not talking about how MMA wannabees call Tae Kwon Do (or any TMA for that matter) unrealistic, I'm talking about arts like Yellow Bamboo.

Just how many of these arts are out there? Do you know any of them? How did they grow? And how did they fall? Or are they still out there?

And are there any out there that actually have an aspect of it work?

I wish I could shoot Chi Balls...

:eek:verkill:

I believe that no touch KO's work. BUT, they only work within the context that we see from the videos. I think that is how many of these things get started. It works on the same premise as a stage hypnotist. The difference is that a stage hypnontist KNOWS how/why/where to manipulate his mark and does so. I think that in many cases, the teacher of arts like these isn't aware of the fact that this is what they are doing.

You have an environment of trust with the teacher/student. The teacher preprograms the student as to what will happen. The student WANTS that to happen. Voila!!! It happens.
 

K-man

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I think Chi or Ki is more of a concept that explains things like physics, the effects of adrenaline and conditioning and biology rather than as a separate physical phenomenon.
You are welcome to you opinion but I would suggest that from your comment you have not seen or felt what we are discussing and you obviously haven't trained it. What I have experienced, I could not ignore. It has nothing to do with physics or biomechanics and it isn't really a physical phenomenon either ... more mental. It changed my training totally. Keep an open mind.
 
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drewtoby

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I think you need to carefully distinguish between people who deliberately distort the truth and those who genuinely practise martial arts with an internal aspect.

I have seen top level exponents in China demonstrating their internal powers and have no doubt that at high level training they have something quite special. Koichi Tohei started the Ki Society and Ki Aikido after he was stopped by the principals of Aikikai from teaching internal aspects within that style.

In actual fact I joined this forum after I first came across 'Ki' to see how many others on the forum had it in their training. The resulting discussion was quite divisive with some labelling Chi/Ki as BS and others who were training with it cautiously saying that it is real. Even within those who train with Chi/Ki there are many different ways that people understand it.

Chi balls to me are probably in the realm of fantasy, 'no touch' knockouts I have never seen, apart from video, and I would not think they had any place in RBSD even if they were possible. But hard Ki in training and soft Ki in training, yes I see it all the time.
:asian:

This is true. We use Ki in hapkido, but it's more like controlling adrenalin for us.
 

RTKDCMB

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You are welcome to you opinion but I would suggest that from your comment you have not seen or felt what we are discussing and you obviously haven't trained it. What I have experienced, I could not ignore. It has nothing to do with physics or biomechanics and it isn't really a physical phenomenon either ... more mental. It changed my training totally. Keep an open mind.

Yes I forgot to mention the mental component, which is very important, but even the mental component is a product of biology in that the state of mind is a consequence of the neural patterns formed by experience, training, personality and a host of other factors that are not easily explained (the human brain is the most complex piece of matter in the known universe). In any case it is not how it works that matters it is the effect the training has on you and what you get out of it that matters. All martial arts, whether they be internal or external have an important mental component.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I believe in order to make the Qi ball work, you will need a "sender" as well as a "receiver". If you are a "receiver", you can feel it. It you are not, you won't. Since not everybody can be a "receiver", the value of Qi ball has zero value in combat. I have met many Qi masters in my life. Since I'm not a receiver, I can't feel any Qi from them.
 

RTKDCMB

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I believe in order to make the Qi ball work, you will need a "sender" as well as a "receiver". If you are a "receiver", you can feel it. It you are not, you won't. Since not everybody can be a "receiver", the value of Qi ball has zero value in combat. I have met many Qi masters in my life. Since I'm not a receiver, I can't feel any Qi from them.

My cat had Qi balls, no wait, that was fur balls.
 

oftheherd1

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I think you need to carefully distinguish between people who deliberately distort the truth and those who genuinely practise martial arts with an internal aspect.

I have seen top level exponents in China demonstrating their internal powers and have no doubt that at high level training they have something quite special. Koichi Tohei started the Ki Society and Ki Aikido after he was stopped by the principals of Aikikai from teaching internal aspects within that style.

In actual fact I joined this forum after I first came across 'Ki' to see how many others on the forum had it in their training. The resulting discussion was quite divisive with some labelling Chi/Ki as BS and others who were training with it cautiously saying that it is real. Even within those who train with Chi/Ki there are many different ways that people understand it.

Chi balls to me are probably in the realm of fantasy, 'no touch' knockouts I have never seen, apart from video, and I would not think they had any place in RBSD even if they were possible. But hard Ki in training and soft Ki in training, yes I see it all the time.
:asian:

I must admit I am often surprised when MA people put down Chi/Ki. I have to wonder how effective their MA is without it, and how much more effective they would be if they were able to harness Chi/Ki. But indeed, horses for courses. Those who don't believe will not learn. From my point of view, it is their loss. From their point of view, it is nonsense. So be it. We can all still live with each other.

My belief in Chi/Ki and its application also does not incorporate Chi Balls nor no-touch knockouts. If people are able to do that, good for them. I was never taught that kind of use of Chi/Ki.

I believe that no touch KO's work. BUT, they only work within the context that we see from the videos. I think that is how many of these things get started. It works on the same premise as a stage hypnotist. The difference is that a stage hypnontist KNOWS how/why/where to manipulate his mark and does so. I think that in many cases, the teacher of arts like these isn't aware of the fact that this is what they are doing.

You have an environment of trust with the teacher/student. The teacher preprograms the student as to what will happen. The student WANTS that to happen. Voila!!! It happens.

I believe what you say is possible. A shame when/if it is so. Students are then being manipulated but not taught useful MA concepts. But I believe there is such a thing as Chi/Ki, which improves my practice and application of my martial art. The fact that you don't believe it is no skin off my back, but it is your choice. I don't expect either of us to change. Nor do I intend to get into a big debate about it.

Your disregard if Chi/Ki is just as programmed as you describe some people's belief in it perhaps? :s40: :uhyeah:
 

DennisBreene

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You are welcome to you opinion but I would suggest that from your comment you have not seen or felt what we are discussing and you obviously haven't trained it. What I have experienced, I could not ignore. It has nothing to do with physics or biomechanics and it isn't really a physical phenomenon either ... more mental. It changed my training totally. Keep an open mind.

Unfortunately, while Ki was discussed in regards to training, my system didn't seem to have any formal approach to the concept and I doubt that even our highest ranking practitioners understood it or experienced it in any conscious way. The concept seems foreign to the western world view and I seem to hear it espoused less and less. It is an attractive concept if one desires the ability to maximize ones effectiveness but it seems to be magical thinking when viewed by many of us who are more inclined to analyze events from a perspective of scientific method. I don't think that that having a questioning approach is necessarily wrong but rigorous scientific method starts with observation of a phenomenon, not with a conclusion. It is perfectly acceptable to observe something and then leave the question as to an explanation open. Development of hypotheses to explain what is observed and the testing and reassessment of the hypothesis can follow. I am frankly more interested in reading/observing information from people who are generally recognized as adept practitioners of ki and learning how they train this phenomenon. If it is something that can be acquired, and can be demonstrated to be effective outside of strictly controlled "demonstrations", I would love to see more formal discussion of the practice. I'm not suggesting a formal forum topic; just insights from those who have real experience with it and some understanding of how they have developed it and what can actually be achieved.
 

K-man

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Unfortunately, while Ki was discussed in regards to training, my system didn't seem to have any formal approach to the concept and I doubt that even our highest ranking practitioners understood it or experienced it in any conscious way. The concept seems foreign to the western world view and I seem to hear it espoused less and less. It is an attractive concept if one desires the ability to maximize ones effectiveness but it seems to be magical thinking when viewed by many of us who are more inclined to analyze events from a perspective of scientific method. I don't think that that having a questioning approach is necessarily wrong but rigorous scientific method starts with observation of a phenomenon, not with a conclusion. It is perfectly acceptable to observe something and then leave the question as to an explanation open. Development of hypotheses to explain what is observed and the testing and reassessment of the hypothesis can follow. I am frankly more interested in reading/observing information from people who are generally recognized as adept practitioners of ki and learning how they train this phenomenon. If it is something that can be acquired, and can be demonstrated to be effective outside of strictly controlled "demonstrations", I would love to see more formal discussion of the practice. I'm not suggesting a formal forum topic; just insights from those who have real experience with it and some understanding of how they have developed it and what can actually be achieved.
Dennis, as I said earlier, I joined this forum years back purely to see if others had experienced what I had. I was bagged mercilessly at the time but there were a few others with whom I discussed it by PM. It was impossible to discuss it on the forum because some of those who obviously had no experience of it were so adamant Ki doesn't exist.

Interesting that in the Aikido school where I first encountered Ki we had a karateka visitor who was absolutely blown away by his experience, but rather than accept it for what it was and either try to learn it or forget about it, he went on line, stated that Ki obviously doesn't exist and asked people for an explanation of what he had just experienced first hand. That is the Western mindset. I was a little different. When I first experienced it I just wanted to be able to practise it myself, so I have been training it ever since.

But you are right about the high ranking practitioners don't get too involved. In Okinawa most will not discuss it but I we did have a very interesting discussion with Tetsuhiro Hokama Sensei about what constitutes the 'soft' of Goju. In Australia, there are a number of top guys who have seen and felt the application of Ki but they choose not to learn it mainly for a couple of reasons. Firstly it takes years of training to become proficient and the second is ego driven. They actually have to start all over again.

As to its effectiveness, it transforms your training. Here I'm talking reality based. I've never seen it used in a sporting situation although I could see its use particularly in the grappling arts.

I have a scientific background and am a total sceptic when I read about this type of thing, but, as you said, "It is perfectly acceptable to observe something and then leave the question as to an explanation open". I don't pretend to understand what is happening but that doesn't make it any less real.
:asian:
 

DennisBreene

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I can imagine. Some of us seem to bring the combative nature of martial arts to everything we encounter, including discussion. Just as I'm having to learn to dial down my hard style training to accommodate the softer aspects of Modern Arnis, I've learned over a lifetime to suspend judgment in many things until I've learned more. It seems I no longer have the need to be right as much as I have the need to learn.
 
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