What would you do?

[Earl Weiss]

Lady finds me because son has returned from boarding school and took ITF TKD and wants to stay with the same system. 14 year old green belt. I tell them to come by for a free class. She's telling me other instructor was ITF.......

Any way they come by and it's apparent the technique (Strong Chung Do Kwan Flavor) , uniform, terminology etc. were not ITF but he's a good kid with lots of potential. Hope he likes what we are doing and can acomodate some refinements. I ask who the instructor was and where they are located.


Check out the website and it's clear they are not ITF, wrong uniforms, wrong romanization of TKD, wrong belts, advertised as "Master" 6th Dan (ITF) which is wrong.

Send guy an e-mail asking for details. I say "There are lots of groups using "ITF" what does it stand for?" And ask about lineage. He tells me it's "International Tae Kwon Do Federation", the Jhoon Rhee forms (explains the CDK flavor) and they use this to explain the style, versus the "WTF style".

I basicaly tell the guy that tis is America, he can teach whatever he wants, but at the very least he's doing a disservice to students who think they are part of an org when they are not and think they are conforming to a certain standard when they are not. At worst he's perpetrating a fraud. I also educate him on styles versus orgs and he is not doing the "Jhoon Rhee Patterns". I suggest he modify his business model.

Would you take it further? Viral? Tell the mom?

 

[dancingalone]

Mr. Weiss,

If I had your talents, I would write a constructive article to educate the mass public on TKD organizations and TKD styles. And then point Mom to it for a primer. It could become a uniform way you handle these issues in the future and doubtlessly would be of good service to other people if you publish it and make it publicly available for fair usage.

 

[Cyriacus]

It probably isnt worth going too hard on. Sure, its a misrepresentation, but ultimately theres not much to gain by pressing the point. Its essentially either a McDojo, in which case it isnt quite as relevant; Or someone whos derived their own interpritation, and 'neglected' to remove the ITF badge.
Ill assume he literally said "International Tae Kwon Do Federation", in which case that is clear negligence.

Personally, i think its ok for someone to break away and change things to suit themself if they want to.
Claiming that its a system which it isnt, is a whole different story.

So while i for one do not approve of what hes doing, i also think it could only brew grievance by trying to take action of any kind.

 

[d1jinx]

I agree with Cyricus,

theres nothing to gain by persuing this. Continue training the student your way.

Many people only know what they were taught. They go out and open a school and teach what and how they were taught without knowing anything different. Perhaps he isnt intentionally claiming something he isnt, only claiming what he was told. I grew up around alot of Jhoon Rhee schools on the east coast and even between the school some would teach differently. They hired instructors, who came from multiple TKD backgrounds and would teach their interpritation. Sure they had a curriculum to follow, but who was to say they didnt follow it completely.

My point is, most people only know what they were taught and unless they traveled around to experience what else was out there, they truly dont know.

 

[oftheherd1]

Mr. Weiss,

If I had your talents, I would write a constructive article to educate the mass public on TKD organizations and TKD styles. And then point Mom to it for a primer. It could become a uniform way you handle these issues in the future and doubtlessly would be of good service to other people if you publish it and make it publicly available for fair usage.

I understand your point, but probably all you would do is tell people how to misrepresent better, or defend their misrepresentation better.

 

[Archtkd]

Lady finds me because son has returned from boarding school and took ITF TKD and wants to stay with the same system. 14 year old green belt. I tell them to come by for a free class. She's telling me other instructor was ITF.......

Any way they come by and it's apparent the technique (Strong Chung Do Kwan Flavor) , uniform, terminology etc. were not ITF but he's a good kid with lots of potential. Hope he likes what we are doing and can acomodate some refinements. I ask who the instructor was and where they are located.


Check out the website and it's clear they are not ITF, wrong uniforms, wrong romanization of TKD, wrong belts, advertised as "Master" 6th Dan (ITF) which is wrong.

Send guy an e-mail asking for details. I say "There are lots of groups using "ITF" what does it stand for?" And ask about lineage. He tells me it's "International Tae Kwon Do Federation", the Jhoon Rhee forms (explains the CDK flavor) and they use this to explain the style, versus the "WTF style".

I basicaly tell the guy that tis is America, he can teach whatever he wants, but at the very least he's doing a disservice to students who think they are part of an org when they are not and think they are conforming to a certain standard when they are not. At worst he's perpetrating a fraud. I also educate him on styles versus orgs and he is not doing the "Jhoon Rhee Patterns". I suggest he modify his business model.

Would you take it further? Viral? Tell the mom?[/QUOTE

Wouldn't bother to take it any further. Take the kid, teach him well and he and his mother will soon tell the difference. After a while, as you can explain it to both of them.

 

[Kacey]

Honestly? I had a high school student (at the school where I was teaching English, not in a training situation) tell me he was learning Karate and offer to show me a pattern as part of his year-end portfolio, which had to include something from an outside activity. To my surprise, he did Toi-Gye - but with only 2 W-shape blocks. He then went on to show me the pattern he learned for his I Dan... which, even more surprisingly, was Yoo-Sin. Turns out his instructor had been around since the 60s, called his school "Karate" because no one knew what Taekwon-Do was, went independent and chose the things he liked, then dropped the rest. The student and I had a good talk about how he could find other classes when he left for college and what to look for to find classes that taught the same patterns (even if with different details and emphasis) and that was all I did.

Master Weiss, I understand your concern - but there's nothing you can do to change what the other person teaches, nor how he presents himself. I've seen plenty of WTF schools that teach Ch'ang Hon patterns - some acknowledge their source and other don't, but none of them have been interested in knowing how things are different elsewhere, because what they are doing is right to them - because it's what they are doing. Hearing what someone else does may not change their sense of what is right... but if they've had any doubts or questions at all, it will make them defensive about it, and they won't want to talk about it.

 

[msmitht]

Don't mention to mom. What did the instructor say?

 

[IcemanSK]

Boy Master Weiss, all of the students of fake ITF folks show up on your doorstep. That's a good thing. I don't think telling mom is needed. And going viral to throw stones isn't your style, sir. It never has been.

 

[miguksaram]

In terms of the instructor I would just contact the ITF organization and have them deal with him or contact GM Rhee and have him deal with him. Dealing with directly asking him to change is the proverbial teaching the pig to sing. Wastes your time and annoys the pig.

As for the mom I would be upfront with her. Let her know that what they were doing was not what you do but you would still like to work with him. Let him keep his rank and let them both know that he will have to make some changes and it might be take a little longer to reach his next rank while he learns your curriculum. Good luck sir.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Don't mention to mom. What did the instructor say?

Have not said anything to mom.... yet.

Instructor has not replied, nor do I expect him to.

As I said to him, this is America and we can teach or sell just about whatever we want.
(Caveat emptor).
However, it is far different to sell something and misrepresent it as something else, granted there may be a difference between intentional and innocent misrepresentation although innocent misrepresentation can still have negative effects.

 

[Earl Weiss]

We'll see if he takes the hint and removes references to org and rank vis a vis "ITF".

If not, I would hate to see others misled because I said nothing.

 

[granfire]

We'll see if he takes the hint and removes references to org and rank vis a vis "ITF".

If not, I would hate to see others misled because I said nothing.

well, you did speak up.
Let's face it, there are people who will be misled. You can't save them, because they want to be had.

I am guessing he won't change a thing though....

 

[StudentCarl]

Good suggestions above about integrating the student. He will see the quality of your instruction, which will earn his commitment.

I like miguksaram's suggestion of a courtesy email to ITF and GM Rhee. They are also being ripped off and might wish to defend their good names. If someone 'out there' was telling his students he was teaching in your name (without your permission), wouldn't you want someone to let you know?

 

[Archtkd]

Good suggestions above about integrating the student. He will see the quality of your instruction, which will earn his commitment.

I like miguksaram's suggestion of a courtesy email to ITF and GM Rhee. They are also being ripped off and might wish to defend their good names. If someone 'out there' was telling his students he was teaching in your name (without your permission), wouldn't you want someone to let you know?

I wonder if the the ITF and GM Rhee would pursue the issue. I wonder if the same would be done for the tons of Kukkiwon style schools, that even have Kukkiwon logos on their web sites and marketing materials -- but no longer recommend their students for Kukkiwon dan certification. i.e the schools' masters or GMs tout their own high dan Kukkiwon certification, teach in the Kukkiwon style, but then insist their own students do not need Kukkiwon certification because it's now "useless, bogus, etc."

 

[StudentCarl]

I wonder if the the ITF and GM Rhee would pursue the issue.

Informing them would satisfy my integrity. Whether they pursue might depend on whether they've had problems before. Name reputation is very important, though I'd guess moreso at the school or individual level than federation.

 

[Master Dan]

Wow I am almost wore out with this whole subject age experience the Pioneers you have trained with it seems to matter nothing to both the supposubed master instructors or potential students? I am like you know who in the cave waiting for a worthy student to be taught and the first one cuts his arm off to prove worthyness? I just don't care anymore let him who has ears listen and eyes to see and the rest go your way don't waste my time. All the ego and politics means nothing on the street or in life skills to survive yada yada yada system, org this step that step all that matters now is real spirit, real technique, root of Chi or Ki that the instructor has to pass on more than talk and paper

 

[miguksaram]

Wow I am almost wore out with this whole subject age experience the Pioneers you have trained with it seems to matter nothing to both the supposubed master instructors or potential students? I am like you know who in the cave waiting for a worthy student to be taught and the first one cuts his arm off to prove worthyness? I just don't care anymore let him who has ears listen and eyes to see and the rest go your way don't waste my time. All the ego and politics means nothing on the street or in life skills to survive yada yada yada system, org this step that step all that matters now is real spirit, real technique, root of Chi or Ki that the instructor has to pass on more than talk and paper

Do you ever proof read what you write? This seems to be garbled together in one incoherent mess.