So far, I have been using wooden swords and i will continue to use them, but I was wondering if training with a heavier or longer sword would be better than just using a normal length bokken? And does it matter if a different type of sword was used at times or would that be bad for technique reasons? feel free to answer, or post other factors that could be discussed further.
What type of sword to use for training
- Thread starter Pfabrizi
- Start date
mantis
Master Black Belt
assumptions:
1. i study a chinese style of MA (straight sword, and broadsword) and have no information on japanese swords.
2. i do not quite know how bokken is used. is it for slashing like a broadsword, or should it be precise like a straigh sword.
reply:
i was adivced before I move to a real sword, or a heavy sword, or any metal sword, that i tie a small shash that dangles from the bottom of the sword. the goal was to do the forms (katas) with a fast flow without having this sash tangle around my hand. after i become good enough to do this, then i can move to a real sword.
i'd say the weight doesnt matter too much, but what matters is your speed and precision.
last thing i want to say is i know someone who cut his calf practicing katana. so please watch out. and.. what's wrong with a forged sword?
1. i study a chinese style of MA (straight sword, and broadsword) and have no information on japanese swords.
2. i do not quite know how bokken is used. is it for slashing like a broadsword, or should it be precise like a straigh sword.
reply:
i was adivced before I move to a real sword, or a heavy sword, or any metal sword, that i tie a small shash that dangles from the bottom of the sword. the goal was to do the forms (katas) with a fast flow without having this sash tangle around my hand. after i become good enough to do this, then i can move to a real sword.
i'd say the weight doesnt matter too much, but what matters is your speed and precision.
last thing i want to say is i know someone who cut his calf practicing katana. so please watch out. and.. what's wrong with a forged sword?
Well, I have used a wooden broadsword a few times and I found it remotely similar to using a bokken, but I would think a straight sword would be a little more similar because the bokken is used for slashing and stabbing as well, I would figure that the straight sword is used similarly?
And about the forged sword, do you mean basically a metal sword with no edge?
And about the forged sword, do you mean basically a metal sword with no edge?
When I first started in Armizare, I used a wooden waster because that was what was available. When aluminum swords came out (first from an outside source, then made by club members), the switch was immediate. Aluminum mimics steel in handling, weight, balance, and vibration/harmonics. You can bind blade-to-blade, something that wood doesn't necessarily do (it bounces).
For safety's sake, the blades are rounded and blunted. However, you can still receive a hefty blow from a "safe" blade, particularly at the hands. Thus it's become a big part of training to practice with absolute control, at all times.
For safety's sake, the blades are rounded and blunted. However, you can still receive a hefty blow from a "safe" blade, particularly at the hands. Thus it's become a big part of training to practice with absolute control, at all times.
Pfabrizi said:
Proper sword for the drill you are doing.
Dull bladed for Iaido type stuff, at least when new. Bokken for most kata type stuff, either one person or two. Blade only when you know what you are doing and are told by an instructor to start using it. Shinai for sparring and drills where you are whacking people. Live blade for practice cutting, IF you know what you are doing well enough not to hurt anyone.
And if you are using a live blade for anything, ever, get a good one. Not the cheap economy ones, too many stories of those breaking and people and property getting damaged.
If you where doing western fencing you'd want a fencing sword. Tai chi, a tai chi sword, and well, you get the idea.
What you are doing in training will determine what you should be using
What style of sword art are you taking (or planning to take)? Because that will determine what kind of sword you would use, and also the sword's specs.
For example, different JSA require differing tsuka (handle) length, according to the sword grip. Nami Ryu utilizes a wide grip. In contrast, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (which I'm currently practicing) uses a close hand grip. And since YSKR also has some left-handed draws (the swords are always worn on the left), the blade length also needs to be suitable to the practioner's height and arm span.
Depending on your sensei, you may be allowed to start off with a live blade right away for solo kata (my sensei actually prefers his students to work with shinken as soon as possible). Or the sensei may prefer for you to wait until you achieve a certain skill level before allowing you to work with a shinken.
And as it was already mentioned, you would NOT be using live blades in partnered drills or kenjutsu. Advanced students may perhaps use DULLED blades on occasion in those partnered drills or kata, but for the majority of the time, you would use bokken when working with another person.
For example, different JSA require differing tsuka (handle) length, according to the sword grip. Nami Ryu utilizes a wide grip. In contrast, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (which I'm currently practicing) uses a close hand grip. And since YSKR also has some left-handed draws (the swords are always worn on the left), the blade length also needs to be suitable to the practioner's height and arm span.
Depending on your sensei, you may be allowed to start off with a live blade right away for solo kata (my sensei actually prefers his students to work with shinken as soon as possible). Or the sensei may prefer for you to wait until you achieve a certain skill level before allowing you to work with a shinken.
And as it was already mentioned, you would NOT be using live blades in partnered drills or kenjutsu. Advanced students may perhaps use DULLED blades on occasion in those partnered drills or kata, but for the majority of the time, you would use bokken when working with another person.
I'm planning to take Kenjuitsu or Kendo but still not completely sure. I definitely wouldn't use a live blade for sparring, and for now (until I get an instructor) probably not even for solo work. I was also wondering because I make my own wooden swords and I like to make bigger swords so I wasn't really sure if practicing with them would affect technique or anything.
hold it in your right hand and let it hang, if it's draggin on the ground it's too long 
Charles Mahan
Purple Belt
Andrew Green said:hold it in your right hand and let it hang, if it's draggin on the ground it's too long
That kinda depends on the school. If I did that with my shinken the tip would hit the ground near the toes of my feet. It doesn't even come close to swinging freely. I could easily manage another half inch or so. Another 2 inches is quite possible, although somethings get a little tricky at that lenght without regular practice.
Pfabrizi,
I think the Aluminum practice swords that are being referred to are iaito. They are for all practical intents and purposes the same as katana, with the exception that they are not sharp, and will not stand up to contact. They were invented to get around certain Japanese legislation which limits the number of steel swords Japanese smiths can make, which led to a big supply and demand problem when the number of folks interested in Iaido practice started picking up a few decades ago. As Iaito are made of non-ferrous alloys, they are not subject to the same production quotas.
http://www.swordcrafts.com/
This is the website for my club's source for aluminum training weapons. They'll stand up to quite a lot of abuse when it's aluminum vs. aluminum. However, they'll probably not withstand working with blunted steel swords.
This is the website for my club's source for aluminum training weapons. They'll stand up to quite a lot of abuse when it's aluminum vs. aluminum. However, they'll probably not withstand working with blunted steel swords.
Pfabrizi said:
In my school's kobudo classes, we generally use "standard" bokken for drills, sometimes going bokken to bokken for contact drills as well. We'll also use the bamboo shinai for contact drills. I would strongly recommend starting out with the bamboo shinai, if you are going to be doing some sword on sword work.
I've seen too many people try to start their sword on sword drills with bokken. While bokken on bokken drills are fine, I would rather the participants have at least a certain amount of experience in handling them, so that they're familiar with proper techniques. This way, you don't have people banging up their fingers and hands (all too common esepcially when children are working these drills).
We do keep a few subrito (very wide, heavy, and large wooden swords) whose sole purpose are for strength training. Not really for sword on sword contact drills, since the swing would be different, and I'm not one to screw around with things that would disrupt good mechanics.
I see that you make your own wooden swords, and that's certainly admirable. I will, however, suggest that you be a bit picky when it comes to making your own bokken, especially when selecting the wood.
As a general rule of thumb:
Avoid North American red oak. Too porous, and breaks with any serious contact.
Avoid most white oak as well. See reasons above. Japanese white oak (Kashi) is good, though.
Hickory is a great bang / buck wood. Very tough and resilient, and doesn't cost as much as the more expensive exotic woods.
Purpleheart and Jatoba are great woods for bokken. Very beautiful woods, and also tough and resilient. I have a Jatoba bokken that has lasted me for two years of regular use. Sure, it has a bunch of indentations and a few surface cracks, but the bokken is still in great condition, and everyone who tries to use a red oak bokken against mine ends up for the worse.
Ipe is my favorite wood for bokken. Very, very dense, and extremely tough. The Ipe bokken that I have is a bit wider than my Jatoba bokken, but not by much. It has a lot more weight, though. Make sure you use carbide blades when you cut it...
melj7077
Yellow Belt
I've been studying iaido and find that using Century's aluminum training sword is fine. I was warned that the training swords are not very well balanced but they are servicable.
Wooden swords don't allow the drawing of the saya and the sword nor do they allow you to perform noto correctly. The aluminum swords aren't sharp though the tip is kind of pointy. They are also not that expensive. I use a Century sword but there are other suppliers.
Wooden swords don't allow the drawing of the saya and the sword nor do they allow you to perform noto correctly. The aluminum swords aren't sharp though the tip is kind of pointy. They are also not that expensive. I use a Century sword but there are other suppliers.
pgsmith
Master of Arts
Those "training swords" have a plastic handle that will begin cracking and loosening within a year. The blade is a very soft aluminum alloy that bends extremely easily. This can lead to metal fatigue quite quickly. These two problems mean that every time you make a cut, you are going to be taking the chance of your blade flying out and impaling whoever happens to be in the wrong place. They are not allowed in my dojo! The beginner iaito that I recommend when students do not want to spend a lot on their first iaito, is by Meirin Sangyo and costs $260. It can be found at Mugendo Budogu ... http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page63.html
These are definitely not fancy, but they are well made and rock solid.
I seriously DO NOT recommend anyone using a Century "training sword".
Hi everyone, I havent been able to come on for the past few days but now im back and I have read all of the new posts, the Century practice swords sound interesting but im not so sure about it, sounds a little dangerous. I will do some more researching. I'm still open for more advice! Thanks alot for all the info so far.:asian:
Pfabrizi said:
Hey...how is your dojo search? Have you tried searching on eBudo? Try running a search there, or posting on this thread: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=124
You could also try asking some of the folks on Sword Forum. You'll find a LOT of JSA practioners there.
Also for your information, there is a world of difference between kenjutsu and kendo. Kenjutsu is the study of a sword art (which comprises of different styles and koryu), and kendo is more of a sport, like fencing.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Mcura said:
I don't know much about aluminum swords, but I am quite certain that steel is much heavier and denser than aluminum. If a steel blade and aluminum blade are made to the same specifications in size, i.e. length, width, thickness, equal taper, etc., the steel blade will be noticably heavier. To get the same weight, I imagine the aluminim blade would have to be made thicker. That might work, but it might also affect how the sword handles when swung.
pgsmith
Master of Arts
I agree that this is an incorrect statement. However, it is not as incorrect as you would think at first glance. An aluminum alloy iaito will handle pretty much the same as a decent shinken. The weight is usually less, but not by too much. Most iaito are usually between 850 and 1050 g. Decent shinken for iaido are usually between 950 and 1200 g. Balance is pretty much spot on with any decent iaito. Harmonics are considerably different as aluminum alloy is just not as hard as steel and so doesn't quite feel the same. However, if you are practicing correctly, you should never be aware of any vibrations/harmonics.
Decent iaito are made of an alloy of zinc and aluminum. This provides some stiffness to the blade, and increases the weight. Better iaito add beryllium to the alloy which increases the density and causes it to respond much more like a shinken.
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