What to train for reality?

[Tarrycat]

I want to ask the people with real self defense experience (bouncers, police officers) what they think are the most common attacks that a person should prepare for. The reason that I ask is because I have 35 years of martial arts experience but a lot of what I have learned is theoretical and not necessarily practical. I'm at the stage of my life where I'd like to find out what is effective in self defense from people who live it everyday and not just someone who claims to be a "reality self defense" master. Thank you in advance.

I would recommend Krav Maga... I'm not too knowledgeable with regards to reality combat fighting styles, I'm just giving an opinion based on what I've heard about it.

Luckily we do all of the modern combat fighting styles too in Ninjutsu; because my Sensei used to be in the Special Forces.

Realistic combat fighting is a necessity. That's why I'm keen on taking it up someday. Unfortunately times have changed, but it doesn't make the Martial Arts invalid. I've heard about a lot of people who've escaped death, thanks to it.

It just depends; when you're held at gunpoint, it's always best to comply; unless of course, you're Steven Seagal & you can manage to get out of it with confidence. :')

 

[marques]

This is simple. In the USA, drunks do several things, and almost always, they can be depended on not to be rocket surgeons.

1) Roundhouse right to the head. The traditional haymaker. That's the number one punch thrown by drunks.

Usually it is delivered one of two ways. Either straight up, or they turn away like they're leaving and then turn towards you (usually to their left) and throw it.

Most Americans are right-handed so it's almost always a right hand roundhouse to the noggin.

Response is simple. Block left, punch right. Note that a roundhouse punch can get around a standard upper body block because it wraps and it enters (a hook, a semi-circle). You can avoid letting it get through by pressing the block forward, enter into the attacker's space. This also gives him a target for his left, so take him out violently with your counter to his right overhand/hook/roundhouse, etc.

What else do drunks do?

2) Chest bump. Don't play monkey dance games. You have a job to do. He chest bumps, you grab his nuts and twist, whilst protecting your head with the other hand, because he's either going to punch or puke.

3) Push your chest. Usually with both hands. Again, he wants a monkey dance. You don't do that. He will push with his upper body strength, which will force him to lean forward to deliver the push with power. You slap his hands / arms down hard, swivel neck his jaw, lock the closest arm and frog-march him outside.

That's pretty much it. Unless they come heeled and want to use it, it won't be anything more straight forward than that.

There are a million techniques for dealing with the above. Train one and get good it it, you'll be fine.

Yep, Youtube and some other live experiences confirm it. Possibilities are infinite, but it is almost always the same 2 or 3 attacks. Even trained people, when angry, may forget everything and return to the old 2 or 3 attacks...

 

[hoshin1600]

Have you read Roy Miller's books? If not they are a must read.

 

[Kababayan]

I would recommend Krav Maga...

I'm a Krav Black Belt. It's great stuff.

 

[Kababayan]

Have you read Roy Miller's books? If not they are a must read.

I'll check them out. Thank you.

 

[Anarax]

Thanks JR. This was the exact purpose of my original post. As a former kickboxer I feel alright with hitting and getting hit while keeping emotions in check, and I'm confident with my ability in a fight. As a Kempo guy my hands are very fast and my forms are amazing (lol). Krav preaches awareness and running away to keep oneself safe, so that's instilled in me. My training with Vunak means that I can probably spike-trap-straightblast-headbutt pretty well. What I lack is real, practical knowledge from people who have been in a multitude of confrontations. My question comes from the idea that many martial arts instructors will say that "this is what happens in a fight" but they also may lack the real-world experience to accompany their "expertise." I have been in three "street fights", but I have never been carjacked, or fought someone who was drunk or on drugs. I had a gun pulled on me which was a prop-gun but I didn't know it at the time. I was able to disarm that. My kickboxing skills were enough to allow me to easily handle my opponents. My purpose is that I want to be able to tell my students that "this is what police officers/bouncers, etc have experienced. This is why we do it."

A perfect example is that when I owned a Kempo school I used to teach a spear-hand poke to the throat. I would demonstrate how theoretically it would be effective, but I've never used it in a fight so I don't have the practical experience to confidently tell my students to use it if attacked. When I was in high school I used the same move in a fight that broke Anderson Silva's leg in his UFC match. I broke the guy's leg so I can confidently tell you that the move works.

Going back to my original question, my hope is to hear from people who have a multitude of real-world experience, and what they have encountered from that actual experience. For example, one of my instructors was a bouncer and he said that he has has used his BJJ experience to keep him from going to the ground but he has never had to go to the ground (nor would he want to.) His advice was to train heavy in takedown defense. I consider his advice to be very valid because it came from his real-world experience. A friend of mine's husband works in the county jail. His advice was to be aware of what's in people's hands in case there was a knife or a shank. That's what my goal was with my original question...to get real-world advice from people who have lived it. I apologize if my original purpose wasn't clear. Thank you in advance.

Thank for clarifying. Haymakers, takedowns, body grabs and headlocks are probably the most common attacks you'll encounter on the street from untrained people. What to look for overall is body language. Most people will give tells if they are about to attack you, especially the untrained. Situational awareness is a huge component in Security, Policing and bouncing. You have no idea what their intentions are nor what weapons they might have.

Your CO friend is right, keep an eye on their hands and see if they're reaching for a weapon, that's crucial. Your bouncer BJJ friend is also right, don't go to the ground by choice, it's a terrible real life situation to be in. If he has just one other friend to attack you, or pulls out a knife you're in a world of trouble. Don't ever turn your back on them until you're at a safe distance.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yep, Youtube and some other live experiences confirm it. Possibilities are infinite, but it is almost always the same 2 or 3 attacks. Even trained people, when angry, may forget everything and return to the old 2 or 3 attacks...

Personally, I have never been attacked 'for real' by anyone with any type of formal training that I'm aware of. Some people who might or might not have been in a fight or two in their lives, and who may or may not have been good fighters in the past, but typically drunks with lowered inhibitions and inflated opinions of their abilities with fisticuffs.

My history is as an MP serving in a field unit in the Marine Corps, then some years in civilian law enforcement (but mostly as a dispatcher, security guard, etc). Been in a couple fights, I guess. Been attacked with hands and weapons. Nobody ever tried to kick me. Been wrassled to the ground by drunks, I agree with others who say that's bad mojo in general. Been tossed around like a salad by big dudes whom I tried to bring down with misapplied chokes and other forms of non-lethal force. However, I never lost a fight; all my guys ended up wearing my handirons and at the end of the day, that's what matters.

If I had to train someone to deal with 'the street' and I had a day to do it, I'd teach them how to block high left and punch right. Never trust the 'walk away' and you're pretty much covered.

Sure, I'm certain there are eleventy degree black belts in multiple disciplines out there who are itching to whup up on anyone who passes within their optical range, but I've never run into them; maybe because outside of work, I've never hung around in bars or places where testosterone runs like whisky and inhibitions are considered a bad idea.

 

[jobo]

Well if you want opinions in a global Forum setting from those working as Bouncers, Police Officers, Security detail etc you are going to get a mixed box of treats so to speak.

Here is my opinion in this order..............

1. Jeet Kune Do (JKD)
   
2. Boxing
3. Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)

I have trained in Kung-Fu, Wing Chun, Aiki Jiu-Jitsu and Boxing / Kickboxing and Jeet-Kune-Do all in which there were members of the the Police Force, Security Guards and Bouncers in general training and coming and going.

A majority working in fields in involving personal threat or physical public relations LoL are practicing some form of martial arts and these days its MMA.

But you got to choose a Martial Art that suits your body type imagine you're a 5 foot 4 guy how would you Judo throw a 7 foot 5 @ 200Ib person etc.

Also no such thing as this Martial Arts is better than this one because its all about how you the practitioner represent it.

You must train every once of your body and condition it for the physical nature and demands of Martial Arts, things to consider.............

• Weight
• Cardio
• Speed
• Fitness
  
• Flexibility
• Agility
  
• Mobility
• Strength
• Endurance
• Pain Tolerance
  
• Mental Awareness
• Sensitivity Training
• Fighting ability quick to learn and read movements and adapt
  
• Knowledge Theoretical and Practical
• Manage emotions and relaxation techniques

As you can see its really about the person not the Martial Art.


"STUDY THE MARTIAL ART THINK AND PRACTICE FOR THE STREET"

Is the main idea.

this seems the most comprehensive answer, though it is perhaps answering a question the op didn't ask,

if you want to tell your students what works on the,street, tell them the truth, that nothing works unless you have the physicality to make it work, just as any old rubbish will be most effective if you have the ability to use it.

bouncers at least the ones round here, spend a good part of their week lifting great big weights, dealing with aggressive drunks is a piece of cake if you are twice as strong and 50 to a100lbs heavier. And of course they have back up, just in case they run into someone as big and strong as they are

here's what happens when bouncers fight someone bigger and stronger than them

 

[FighterTwister]

I want to ask the people with real self defense experience (bouncers, police officers) what they think are the most common attacks that a person should prepare for. The reason that I ask is because I have 35 years of martial arts experience but a lot of what I have learned is theoretical and not necessarily practical. I'm at the stage of my life where I'd like to find out what is effective in self defense from people who live it everyday and not just someone who claims to be a "reality self defense" master. Thank you in advance.

Contact these people:- Jeet Kune Do Athletic Association

And find the best place to train in JKD where you live.

Also stay in top physical condition would be my advice.

this seems the most comprehensive answer, though it is perhaps answering a question the op didn't ask,

if you want to tell your students what works on the,street, tell them the truth, that nothing works unless you have the physicality to make it work, just as any old rubbish will be most effective if you have the ability to use it.

bouncers at least the ones round here, spend a good part of their week lifting great big weights, dealing with aggressive drunks is a piece of cake if you are twice as strong and 50 to a100lbs heavier. And of course they have back up, just in case they run into someone as big and strong as they are

here's what happens when bouncers fight someone bigger and stronger than them

I somewhat agree!

First this can easily become a stupid discussion in my honest opinion.

But lets just discuss this shall we, most fights in the street are coward acts of violence and unskilled in any martial arts or fighting techniques some just go straight to the face in the attempt to knock out that person and then followed by kicks to the body when they are down.

You see this nearly every time there is a media footage reporting some-kind of incident nowadays.

So someone who is trained and I mean trained not just some guy with a black belt.

Someone who is very experienced and skilled in real fighting and controls the environment is also a very savvy type person or with a great fighting I.Q.

That will know......... range of fighting, tactics E.g manage distance, a good sense of where to strike and striking tools like kicking punching, head butting, movement, understanding body mechanics etc..............

Also have some speed and power and know how to develop it quickly, become very violent yet controlled and reading the fight, relaxed but also very alert and quick to react and counter and know when to be aggressive yet calm and so on.

I could explain allot more but thats another thread on the "Types of Fighters and the Types of Temperament"!

Anyway watch this...............

Also this one .............. How To Fight a Fat Person and Win


So like I have said in most of posts its always about you and your knowledge of fighting and how you either represent your self or express it, its never the martial art itself.

Bruce Lee said it like this every human has two arms and two legs (The Human Body) but to express it without fear like in a small play in an act taken seriously................

BRUCE LEE THE LOST INTERVIEW (1994) - Bruce Lee Interview | Canada | Full Interview | EN | Classics

Its why I posted this here................. *** UFC - THE ART OF THE FIGHT ***

Also posting in lots of other good threads like this one.............. increasing speed,

Oh well never mind LoL

Please note, it's always an intelligent and wise effort to avoid a street fight if you can, but if you are working as a Bouncer or in Law enforcement, I would only encourage keep your street skills up and always train being true to yourself. Know self and fight what is in front of you not your thoughts or emotions or fears and be aware of your surroundings.

Learn to keep calm think and be creative and be very quick at doing it.

I would advise to have Jeet-Kune-Do as a martial art easily for people in a life threatening career and a high level of fitness is absolute.

Well thats my opinion, some really good discussion points for other threads though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

See if you have your basics I still feel you are better able to achieve an objective.

I mean if I have a gun and you are trying to take it off me. It is going to be harder if I can really fight. Regardless how that scenario is supposed to play out with specific methods.

The guy who can fight has the advantage.

Agreed. And many of the tools that can lead to cuffing, for instance, are just takedowns that follow with pins, etc. The takedown is still valuable, and the pin might be, though not as much as for the LEO. Different emphasis in some areas, but many of the same tools work in both situations, and the basics are necessary in both.

 

[Kababayan]

Thank you to all that replied. I have summed up what the responses were just in case new readers don't want to read through the entire thread. Respectfully, I only included responses from people who identified themselves as former or current law enforcement, bouncers, or people in the security industry, as I was looking responses rooted in the experience of those who lived it rather than theoretical practice. These are in no particular order:

- It's important to defend the left turn-rigth punch attack.
- Read body language
- Situational awareness
- Learn good takedown defense
- Watch attacker's hands for weapons
- Be aware of headlocks and body grabs for takedowns

Thank you for all who responded.

 

[jobo]

Thank you to all that replied. I have summed up what the responses were just in case new readers don't want to read through the entire thread. Respectfully, I only included responses from people who identified themselves as former or current law enforcement, bouncers, or people in the security industry, as I was looking responses rooted in the experience of those who lived it rather than theoretical practice. These are in no particular order:

- It's important to defend the left turn-rigth punch attack.
- Read body language
- Situational awareness
- Learn good takedown defense
- Watch attacker's hands for weapons
- Be aware of headlocks and body grabs for takedowns

Thank you for all who responded.

and be stronger / faster / better cardio or stronger and faster and have better cardio, than your attacker, thats the most important

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

- Learn good takedown defense.

There is no such thing as "takedown defense". You have to train takedown in order to understand how to defend it.

- It's important to defend the left turn-rigth punch attack.
- Read body language
- Situational awareness
- Learn good takedown defense
- Watch attacker's hands for weapons
- Be aware of headlocks and body grabs for takedown.

You should add "fast and long distance running" into that list.

 

[jobo]

There is no such thing as "takedown defense". You have to train takedown in order to understand how to defend it.


You should add "fast and long distance running" into that list.

generaly you don't need both, either fast or long will do. If they haven't caught you in 40 yards they give up

 

[JR 137]

Awesome.

Worked with NY State Police SWAT guys after Hurricane Katrina.

Great group of guys. Enjoyed working with them. Of all the agencies I worked with those guys were by far my favorite.

He isn't SWAT, and he wasn't in yet when Katrina hit, but he's a great guy. I know a lot of NYS Troopers. Now that I think about it, there aren't any I know that aren't good guys.

Edit: one of my brother in law's Trooper buddies is a real douche. No idea why everyone's practically in love with the guy. I can see if he's taken a bullet for someone else, but that's not the case.

 

[drop bear]

If i wanted to reflect the situations that I would face in a street fight I would probably drill shootboxing. Mostly anyway.

There is enough padding there that you can go at a reasonable pace. But also enough flexibility that will let you explore some different ranges and mechanics.

If you can get your act together in that environment. Working out a self defence plan is going to be a lot easier.

 

[jobo]

Contact these people:- Jeet Kune Do Athletic Association

And find the best place to train in JKD where you live.

Also stay in top physical condition would be my advice.



I somewhat agree!

First this can easily become a stupid discussion in my honest opinion.

But lets just discuss this shall we, most fights in the street are coward acts of violence and unskilled in any martial arts or fighting techniques some just go straight to the face in the attempt to knock out that person and then followed by kicks to the body when they are down.

You see this nearly every time there is a media footage reporting some-kind of incident nowadays.

So someone who is trained and I mean trained not just some guy with a black belt.

Someone who is very experienced and skilled in real fighting and controls the environment is also a very savvy type person or with a great fighting I.Q.

That will know......... range of fighting, tactics E.g manage distance, a good sense of where to strike and striking tools like kicking punching, head butting, movement, understanding body mechanics etc..............

Also have some speed and power and know how to develop it quickly, become very violent yet controlled and reading the fight, relaxed but also very alert and quick to react and counter and know when to be aggressive yet calm and so on.

I could explain allot more but thats another thread on the "Types of Fighters and the Types of Temperament"!

Anyway watch this...............

Also this one .............. How To Fight a Fat Person and Win


So like I have said in most of posts its always about you and your knowledge of fighting and how you either represent your self or express it, its never the martial art itself.

Bruce Lee said it like this every human has two arms and two legs (The Human Body) but to express it without fear like in a small play in an act taken seriously................

BRUCE LEE THE LOST INTERVIEW (1994) - Bruce Lee Interview | Canada | Full Interview | EN | Classics

Its why I posted this here................. *** UFC - THE ART OF THE FIGHT ***

Also posting in lots of other good threads like this one.............. increasing speed,

Oh well never mind LoL

Please note, it's always an intelligent and wise effort to avoid a street fight if you can, but if you are working as a Bouncer or in Law enforcement, I would only encourage keep your street skills up and always train being true to yourself. Know self and fight what is in front of you not your thoughts or emotions or fears and be aware of your surroundings.

Learn to keep calm think and be creative and be very quick at doing it.

I would advise to have Jeet-Kune-Do as a martial art easily for people in a life threatening career and a high level of fitness is absolute.

Well thats my opinion, some really good discussion points for other threads though.

Those vids are nicely staged slow,drills that have nothing much to do with the actual realities of fighting and they mostly contradict each other.
there is a marked difference to fighting someone bigger, in that they have a weight and reach advantage, and fighting someone,significantly stronger than you and worse of all fighting someone who is both significantly bigger and stronger .

if they happen to be bigger stronger and faster, then you have more of less had it. Not many defences work well if they have picked you up and thrown you over or into a wall

 

[drop bear]

Those vids are nicely staged slow,drills that have nothing much to do with the actual realities of fighting and they mostly contradict each other.
there is a marked difference to fighting someone bigger, in that they have a weight and reach advantage, and fighting someone,significantly stronger than you and worse of all fighting someone who is both significantly bigger and stronger .

if they happen to be bigger stronger and faster, then you have more of less had it. Not many defences work well if they have picked you up and thrown you over or into a wall

In which case learn to take your beating like a man.

 

[jobo]

In which case learn to take your beating like a man.

indeed, but that was the point i made to the op of what he should be telling his students about street fighting, that there ability to make techniques work is to a large degree dependent on their athletic abilities

 

[drop bear]

indeed, but that was the point i made to the op of what he should be telling his students about street fighting, that there ability to make techniques work is to a large degree dependent on their athletic abilities

Yes fighting is physical. Good training should reflect that anyway.