What to train for reality?

Kababayan

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I want to ask the people with real self defense experience (bouncers, police officers) what they think are the most common attacks that a person should prepare for. The reason that I ask is because I have 35 years of martial arts experience but a lot of what I have learned is theoretical and not necessarily practical. I'm at the stage of my life where I'd like to find out what is effective in self defense from people who live it everyday and not just someone who claims to be a "reality self defense" master. Thank you in advance.
 

marques

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I am looking forward for answers, too. Just one thing, bouncers and officers may live in a very different scenario from our.

For reality check I used to consult YouTube. I guess police reports/data exist and answer your question.
 
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Kababayan

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I appreciate your response. I've tried to find specific data from police resources but what I have found is info on the number of assaults in an area without the specific types of attacks being noted. You're right about Youtube. Thanks again.
 

Anarax

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I want to ask the people with real self defense experience (bouncers, police officers) what they think are the most common attacks that a person should prepare for. The reason that I ask is because I have 35 years of martial arts experience but a lot of what I have learned is theoretical and not necessarily practical. I'm at the stage of my life where I'd like to find out what is effective in self defense from people who live it everyday and not just someone who claims to be a "reality self defense" master. Thank you in advance.

What does your 35 year background consist of?
 

CB Jones

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I want to ask the people with real self defense experience (bouncers, police officers) what they think are the most common attacks that a person should prepare for. The reason that I ask is because I have 35 years of martial arts experience but a lot of what I have learned is theoretical and not necessarily practical. I'm at the stage of my life where I'd like to find out what is effective in self defense from people who live it everyday and not just someone who claims to be a "reality self defense" master. Thank you in advance.

That most people aren't really skilled in fighting.

They are clumsy and wild.

Best thing to do is strike first, fast, and brutal and end it quickly before it gets chaotic.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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what is effective in self defense ...
If you are outside of your opponent's punching range and if you don't let him to shift weight on his leading leg, his punch can't reach you. IMO, the following are all good fighting skill:

- foot sweep,
- low roundhouse kick,
- knee stomp,
- side kick to the side of knee.
- ...
 

ballen0351

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I dont think there is a most common attack. It depends on who you are or where you live and your lifestyle choices.
Ive been a police officer for 17 years.
So fpr example is you are a 22 year old that lives in an urban setting that likes to frequent bars you are going to have different issues then a 42 year old suburban soccer mom or a 17 year old drug dealer, etc
 

Anarax

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I was a kickboxer for a few years (Pre-UFC).
I also trained with one of Vunak's students for awhile.

Take care.

That's a well-rounded and in depth background. With all of your training you still don't feel enough of it is practical? The techniques that police offices and bouncers use don't vary much from Traditional systems. Joint locks, pain compliance, takedowns, holds, etc. We have a lot of police officers, private security officers and ex-military that train at the Kali school I attend.
 

Anarax

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I was a kickboxer for a few years (Pre-UFC).
I also trained with one of Vunak's students for awhile.

Take care.
I was an armed security officer for two years. Forgot to mention that in original reply
 

FighterTwister

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I want to ask the people with real self defense experience (bouncers, police officers) what they think are the most common attacks that a person should prepare for. The reason that I ask is because I have 35 years of martial arts experience but a lot of what I have learned is theoretical and not necessarily practical. I'm at the stage of my life where I'd like to find out what is effective in self defense from people who live it everyday and not just someone who claims to be a "reality self defense" master. Thank you in advance.

Well if you want opinions in a global Forum setting from those working as Bouncers, Police Officers, Security detail etc you are going to get a mixed box of treats so to speak.

Here is my opinion in this order..............

  1. Jeet Kune Do (JKD)
  2. Boxing
  3. Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)

I have trained in Kung-Fu, Wing Chun, Aiki Jiu-Jitsu and Boxing / Kickboxing and Jeet-Kune-Do all in which there were members of the the Police Force, Security Guards and Bouncers in general training and coming and going.

A majority working in fields in involving personal threat or physical public relations LoL are practicing some form of martial arts and these days its MMA.

But you got to choose a Martial Art that suits your body type imagine you're a 5 foot 4 guy how would you Judo throw a 7 foot 5 @ 200Ib person etc.

Also no such thing as this Martial Arts is better than this one because its all about how you the practitioner represent it.

You must train every once of your body and condition it for the physical nature and demands of Martial Arts, things to consider.............

  • Weight
  • Cardio
  • Speed
  • Fitness
  • Flexibility
  • Agility
  • Mobility
  • Strength
  • Endurance
  • Pain Tolerance
  • Mental Awareness
  • Sensitivity Training
  • Fighting ability quick to learn and read movements and adapt
  • Knowledge Theoretical and Practical
  • Manage emotions and relaxation techniques

As you can see its really about the person not the Martial Art.


"STUDY THE MARTIAL ART THINK AND PRACTICE FOR THE STREET"

Is the main idea.
 
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JR 137

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Not that I have any specific insight, as I'm not one who the post is addressed to, but I had an interesting conversation about MA in general with my brother in law who's a NYS Trooper...

LEOs and other security employees have different requirements than us civilians. My job is to get away when appropriate, and stand my ground when appropriate; basically, I have to get out of there as soon as safely possible. My brother in law's job is ultimately to get the perpetrator under control and into handcuffs. Or unfortunately kill the perpetrator when there's truly no other way. Basically, he's required to stay until the situation is completely resolved. Those are some profound differences.

These fundamental differences will be the key factor in what and how we train. Training in what a LEO/security trains isn't universally the best bet. It can be quite effective, but that doesn't ensure it's the best way for a civilian.

My apologies in advance if I derail the thread and if my post doesn't offer any insight to the OP.
 

JR 137

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That's a well-rounded and in depth background. With all of your training you still don't feel enough of it is practical? The techniques that police offices and bouncers use don't vary much from Traditional systems. Joint locks, pain compliance, takedowns, holds, etc. We have a lot of police officers, private security officers and ex-military that train at the Kali school I attend.
I don't think it's a matter of if he thinks it's not practical, I think it's just confirming and/or refuting what he thinks he and his students are likely to face.

Think of it as researching expert opinions instead of self doubt. I like it. I think every teacher should ask these types of questions. Especially if they're claiming to be teaching self defense skills.
 

CB Jones

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my brother in law who's a NYS Trooper...

Awesome.

Worked with NY State Police SWAT guys after Hurricane Katrina.

Great group of guys. Enjoyed working with them. Of all the agencies I worked with those guys were by far my favorite.
 

drop bear

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Not that I have any specific insight, as I'm not one who the post is addressed to, but I had an interesting conversation about MA in general with my brother in law who's a NYS Trooper...

LEOs and other security employees have different requirements than us civilians. My job is to get away when appropriate, and stand my ground when appropriate; basically, I have to get out of there as soon as safely possible. My brother in law's job is ultimately to get the perpetrator under control and into handcuffs. Or unfortunately kill the perpetrator when there's truly no other way. Basically, he's required to stay until the situation is completely resolved. Those are some profound differences.

These fundamental differences will be the key factor in what and how we train. Training in what a LEO/security trains isn't universally the best bet. It can be quite effective, but that doesn't ensure it's the best way for a civilian.

My apologies in advance if I derail the thread and if my post doesn't offer any insight to the OP.

See if you have your basics I still feel you are better able to achieve an objective.

I mean if I have a gun and you are trying to take it off me. It is going to be harder if I can really fight. Regardless how that scenario is supposed to play out with specific methods.

The guy who can fight has the advantage.
 
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Kababayan

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I don't think it's a matter of if he thinks it's not practical, I think it's just confirming and/or refuting what he thinks he and his students are likely to face.

Think of it as researching expert opinions instead of self doubt. I like it. I think every teacher should ask these types of questions. Especially if they're claiming to be teaching self defense skills.


Thanks JR. This was the exact purpose of my original post. As a former kickboxer I feel alright with hitting and getting hit while keeping emotions in check, and I'm confident with my ability in a fight. As a Kempo guy my hands are very fast and my forms are amazing (lol). Krav preaches awareness and running away to keep oneself safe, so that's instilled in me. My training with Vunak means that I can probably spike-trap-straightblast-headbutt pretty well. What I lack is real, practical knowledge from people who have been in a multitude of confrontations. My question comes from the idea that many martial arts instructors will say that "this is what happens in a fight" but they also may lack the real-world experience to accompany their "expertise." I have been in three "street fights", but I have never been carjacked, or fought someone who was drunk or on drugs. I had a gun pulled on me which was a prop-gun but I didn't know it at the time. I was able to disarm that. My kickboxing skills were enough to allow me to easily handle my opponents. My purpose is that I want to be able to tell my students that "this is what police officers/bouncers, etc have experienced. This is why we do it."

A perfect example is that when I owned a Kempo school I used to teach a spear-hand poke to the throat. I would demonstrate how theoretically it would be effective, but I've never used it in a fight so I don't have the practical experience to confidently tell my students to use it if attacked. When I was in high school I used the same move in a fight that broke Anderson Silva's leg in his UFC match. I broke the guy's leg so I can confidently tell you that the move works.

Going back to my original question, my hope is to hear from people who have a multitude of real-world experience, and what they have encountered from that actual experience. For example, one of my instructors was a bouncer and he said that he has has used his BJJ experience to keep him from going to the ground but he has never had to go to the ground (nor would he want to.) His advice was to train heavy in takedown defense. I consider his advice to be very valid because it came from his real-world experience. A friend of mine's husband works in the county jail. His advice was to be aware of what's in people's hands in case there was a knife or a shank. That's what my goal was with my original question...to get real-world advice from people who have lived it. I apologize if my original purpose wasn't clear. Thank you in advance.
 

Buka

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Spent years as a bouncer, still spending years as a cop, doing Martial Arts a long time. But, damned if I know.

What I think -

Learning to read body language, learning to read and decipher tone of voice, watching the surrounding area. [Indicators I guess.] And, as Ernest Hemmingway said, "Develop a built in B.S detector."

Being able to adapt to anything, including crazy. Not sure there's any one way to learn that.

Learning distance. Learning position. Maybe position is the most important, it's certainly right up there.

Watching the hands is big, especially as an Officer.

I think what experiences teaches the most is - we don't know as much as we think we do.
 

Bill Mattocks

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This is simple. In the USA, drunks do several things, and almost always, they can be depended on not to be rocket surgeons.

1) Roundhouse right to the head. The traditional haymaker. That's the number one punch thrown by drunks.

Usually it is delivered one of two ways. Either straight up, or they turn away like they're leaving and then turn towards you (usually to their left) and throw it.

Most Americans are right-handed so it's almost always a right hand roundhouse to the noggin.

Response is simple. Block left, punch right. Note that a roundhouse punch can get around a standard upper body block because it wraps and it enters (a hook, a semi-circle). You can avoid letting it get through by pressing the block forward, enter into the attacker's space. This also gives him a target for his left, so take him out violently with your counter to his right overhand/hook/roundhouse, etc.

What else do drunks do?

2) Chest bump. Don't play monkey dance games. You have a job to do. He chest bumps, you grab his nuts and twist, whilst protecting your head with the other hand, because he's either going to punch or puke.

3) Push your chest. Usually with both hands. Again, he wants a monkey dance. You don't do that. He will push with his upper body strength, which will force him to lean forward to deliver the push with power. You slap his hands / arms down hard, swivel neck his jaw, lock the closest arm and frog-march him outside.

That's pretty much it. Unless they come heeled and want to use it, it won't be anything more straight forward than that.

There are a million techniques for dealing with the above. Train one and get good it it, you'll be fine.
 
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Bill Mattocks

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Spent years as a bouncer, still spending years as a cop, doing Martial Arts a long time. But, damned if I know.

What I think -

Learning to read body language, learning to read and decipher tone of voice, watching the surrounding area. [Indicators I guess.] And, as Ernest Hemmingway said, "Develop a built in B.S detector."

Being able to adapt to anything, including crazy. Not sure there's any one way to learn that.

Learning distance. Learning position. Maybe position is the most important, it's certainly right up there.

Watching the hands is big, especially as an Officer.

I think what experiences teaches the most is - we don't know as much as we think we do.

Almost every drunk Marine I ever had to fight as an MP tried to do the walk away with left turn and punch. It was almost fun. Often I had six inches of Monadnock buried in their gut before the arm came all the way up. Straight out of the speed ring with my left hand. If they were not puking at that point, I'd grab the other end of the nightstick and reach for the sky; unfortunately their jaw was always in the way. What a shame.
 
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