What to do when an advanced belt has lost it?

Monkey Turned Wolf

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From lying to me as he claimed to be a Red Belt in TKD. I don't take time wasters sparring with liars as they go out there in public or private whatever in their life and make some fake stories to get famous or something similar. He doesn't use any kicks while he's at it with his lies, not even using the basic common techniques like a front kick, round kick, and side kick for example.
Why do you care?
 

Dirty Dog

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From lying to me as he claimed to be a Red Belt in TKD. I don't take time wasters sparring with liars as they go out there in public or private whatever in their life and make some fake stories to get famous or something similar. He doesn't use any kicks while he's at it with his lies, not even using the basic common techniques like a front kick, round kick, and side kick for example.
What do you think a Red Belt in TKD means?
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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What do you think a Red Belt in TKD means?
I think this is rhetorical, but I think it means the person showed up about 3-4 times per week, for 2-3 years, and did his/her best.

If the person is quite athletic, he/she probably looks pretty good. If the person is not the least bit athletic, it probably looks like he/she can't do anything well enough that it would work.

It's like saying, "I've jogged 3 times a week for the past 3 years". Maybe I can run 5km in 18 minutes. Or maybe I need 35 minutes.
 

Dirty Dog

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I think this is rhetorical, but I think it means the person showed up about 3-4 times per week, for 2-3 years, and did his/her best.
That's the thing. It could mean that or, depending on the school, it could mean they paid their fees, showed up, and joined the Black Belt In A Year Club.
In either case, it's a low rank, but the OP seems to think it's something special.
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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That's the thing. It could mean that or, depending on the school, it could mean they paid their fees, showed up, and joined the Black Belt In A Year Club.
In either case, it's a low rank, but the OP seems to think it's something special.
Yup, and similarly, some people think that a black belt must be able to move like Bruce Lee.
 
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That's the thing. It could mean that or, depending on the school, it could mean they paid their fees, showed up, and joined the Black Belt In A Year Club.
In either case, it's a low rank, but the OP seems to think it's something special.
Whether or not I think it's something special (which I'm not sure how you gleaned that from my OP, but that's besides the point), it doesn't change the question. It could be if someone is a good white belt and declines at yellow. It could be if someone is a good 2nd dan and declines during 3rd dan. I would go higher, but I am focused on youth in this thread.

How do you handle it when a student that previously was more engaged, is no longer as engaged, and as a result gets sloppy? If you give them a rank of X gup or X dan based on their performance, and their performance takes a huge nose dive because they stop putting in the effort, do you hold them accountable? What strategies do you use to get them back to X performance and continuing to improve?

You can insult me or you can advise me. I would hope someone of your credentials would opt for the later.
 

Dirty Dog

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Whether or not I think it's something special (which I'm not sure how you gleaned that from my OP, but that's besides the point), it doesn't change the question.
I was referring to @Khang24, the poster I was replying to. Not you. It was an error on my part.
You can insult me or you can advise me. I would hope someone of your credentials would opt for the later.
You can calm down now.
 
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I was referring to @Khang24, the poster I was replying to. Not you. It was an error on my part.
Fair enough.

But you could still answer the question I posed!
 

Dirty Dog

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Fair enough.

But you could still answer the question I posed!
I don't worry about it. People get enthusiastic, they get burned out, they take breaks, they get enthusiastic again. I don't worry about it. It's their journey, not mine.
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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How do you handle it when a student that previously was more engaged, is no longer as engaged, and as a result gets sloppy? If you give them a rank of X gup or X dan based on their performance, and their performance takes a huge nose dive because they stop putting in the effort, do you hold them accountable? .

I'm not sure I follow: is the person getting worse because they are not coming as often, or because they don't even TRY to do a technique well.

If it is about less hours per week, then that is understandable and should be acceptable. Priorities change.

If the person could do better on that day but chooses to be lazy, I would think about some sort of competitive framework. It could be sparring, but it could also be kicking drills with a partner. If the partner is a younger kid or a lower belt, and then there may be some embarrassment leading to more effort.
 
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because they don't even TRY to do a technique well.

If the person could do better on that day but chooses to be lazy, I would think about some sort of competitive framework. It could be sparring, but it could also be kicking drills with a partner. If the partner is a younger kid or a lower belt, and then there may be some embarrassment leading to more effort.
Because they don't even try. Same attendance, but worse effort.

Same thing happens in sparring. They don't put in as much effort.
 

BobY777

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I saw this quite a few times at my last school. You have a student who was at least decent, if not great, by the time they were a green belt. Then, by blue they get lazy and start to coast (instead of improving technique), and by red belt their technique is almost as bad as when they had first started.

I don't know how much of it is just that they've stopped trying, or it's that they want to quit but their parents won't let them (often because they want them to learn the discipline I'm trying to teach). In either case, it's been a challenge to try and motivate kids like this, and an embarrassment that they hold such rank with such a poor attitude and performance.

Have you seen this in the past? What have you done to try and get them to work hard and improve? Demotions? Counseling? Talk to their parents?
I'm beginning to Be that Guy. My reason: for a while I just trained tkd for the fun of it, but then I started thinking: is our club with it's sole 3dan instructor capable of teaching me the core of traditional taekwondo. I started questioning the fundamentals of taekwondo, did a lot of History research and came into a conclusion that this is just watered-down karate.

Now I'm stuck at a club that has only one Black belt instructor, eventhough how cool, Nice Guy he IS, I'm a Vice President of our club and on a coach course. Eventhough I'm just a blue stripe.

So.. too much enthuasism turns into research when you are not able to train as much and as regularly as you would desire. That research ends up with destroying the Faith into The art and hence the motivation.

IS this the Internet's fault really? I would be more interested in taking on wing tsun or karate now and abandon taekwondo.

It feels I'm not doing tkd for My self
 

BobY777

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Let me explain the situation in slightly more detail, and you might get what I mean.

Right now I have one specific kid in mind, but I have seen this plenty more than this one kid. He started around 8 years old. He wasn't the most coordinated or the fastest learner, but he was enthusiastic and worked hard. If I were to give him a score for his abilities at each belt level, there was an upward curve from white through green belt (total of 6 belts).

As a blue belt (3 belts, because of the stripes), he didn't really improve his technique, but he wasn't really on a decline yet. It was like he had let off the gas. He's still moving forward with learning the curriculum (i.e. the stuff you memorize for testing). He wasn't getting A grades on his test, but he wasn't failing it either.

By the time he got to red belt, the effects of letting his foot off the gas had started to materialize. Bad habits (i.e. loose fist, dropping the hand in forms instead of keeping tight chamber at the hip) started to creep in. He would rarely kick above his waist, rarely kiyhap above a whisper, and he was quickly losing any crispness in his punches.

He coasted through blue belt, but the sharp decline hit in red belt.

I've already divided the question into 50/50 (as instructor, as owner), but now I'm dividing it in another metric. What to do when you see these blue belts who are on the decline to avoid the steep fall at red, and what to do with those red belts. So now I have four quadrants of the question.
Maybe they should Be encouraged to quit tkd as the motivation is clearly not there anymore. They could be using their time more wisely In a more encaging activity
 

HighKick

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Because they don't even try. Same attendance, but worse effort.

Same thing happens in sparring. They don't put in as much effort.
This is fairly common in the long periods (years) between higher Dan ranks. The body is just not built to go 'balls out' all class, every class forever. Often times people come to class to maintain the habit of going to class but ease off the gas a little. Not a big deal. If it continues to the point that they regress in technique, then it is an issue. People who spar at a high level will ebb at times. Totally normal and necessary.
If you are talking about Gup rank students, it could be more of an issue. Usually, this is definitely something you can't 'talk' out of them. You have to find what sparks their interest.
Maintaining interest is on both the student and the school/instructor by establishing a good workout environment and setting expectations.
 

Flying Crane

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I'm beginning to Be that Guy. My reason: for a while I just trained tkd for the fun of it, but then I started thinking: is our club with it's sole 3dan instructor capable of teaching me the core of traditional taekwondo. I started questioning the fundamentals of taekwondo, did a lot of History research and came into a conclusion that this is just watered-down karate.

Now I'm stuck at a club that has only one Black belt instructor, eventhough how cool, Nice Guy he IS, I'm a Vice President of our club and on a coach course. Eventhough I'm just a blue stripe.

So.. too much enthuasism turns into research when you are not able to train as much and as regularly as you would desire. That research ends up with destroying the Faith into The art and hence the motivation.

IS this the Internet's fault really? I would be more interested in taking on wing tsun or karate now and abandon taekwondo.

It feels I'm not doing tkd for My self
You might need to find a different school, be it TKD or something else, where you can get better quality instruction. You are only stuck in this place if you allow yourself to be. It is ok to go elsewhere.
 

BobY777

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You might need to find a different school, be it TKD or something else, where you can get better quality instruction. You are only stuck in this place if you allow yourself to be. It is ok to go elsewhere.
IS it? If I leave, the club is in serious trouble. We rely so much of each other.There is the minimum board members that law requires to even function as a club and we are now at minimum.
Remember they are also my "chosen family" with which I choose to use my leisure time.

Then there is the budo code & lifestyle and the adherence to your Masters.. I feel like this might be my way to grow as a budoka.
 

Flying Crane

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IS it? If I leave, the club is in serious trouble. We rely so much of each other.There is the minimum board members that law requires to even function as a club and we are now at minimum.
Remember they are also my "chosen family" with which I choose to use my leisure time.

Then there is the budo code & lifestyle and the adherence to your Masters.. I feel like this might be my way to grow as a budoka.
It is. It is also ok to stay. You need to make your choice for what is right for you. Either way will have consequences.

If you stay for the sake of the club, will you be happy with the results or will you feel resentful and obligated to help someone else keep their school afloat even if you arent happy with the training?

If you leave, will you be forced to end the friendships you have developed? If so, were they ever genuine?
 
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