What the...even MORE new poomsae from Kukkiwon?
- Thread starter TrueJim
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the last ones were meant for top level competitors to separate them. these ones sound more like they are aimed at coured belts to help them move better. without seeing them it sounds like a good idea. being KKW though some obscure youtube videos may be the best we can hope for as far as disseminating them goes.
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TrueJim
Master Black Belt
Apparently, WT has now decided that 3 of the 10 new forms that Kukkiwon introduced last year are going to be used in WT sanctioned tournaments from now on -- so presumably adoption of some of the new forms "starts now". Agreeing with tubby, it sure would be nice though if competitors had something more than YouTube videos to train with.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
it's definitely coming! One of my friends was the model/demonstrator used for one of the poomsae in the Kukkiwon's official video recording. He doesn't know when they'll be released though.
Maybe I'll find out more at the Master Instructor Course next summer. I'll certainly be asking.
skribs
Grandmaster
Interesting. At my school we still teach the more traditional Palgwe and Kibon forms. I doubt we'll see our curriculum change.
Personally, unless there's a really good reason to switch, I'd rather keep teaching the forms I've been familiar with and have more confidence in. (But that's not my call).
Personally, unless there's a really good reason to switch, I'd rather keep teaching the forms I've been familiar with and have more confidence in. (But that's not my call).
What is the real reason for trying to introduce a myriad of new forms? Are the current forms not sufficient or substandard? The article states in the opening line that they were created to promote adult TKD. In what manner will they do this that the current forms do not? Are these in addition to the current forms, which, in my opinion are already far too many.
I'll stick with the mantra of 1-3 forms is all one would ever need. That's with the caveat that I don't compete and what I teach is squarely on the martial side of the arts.
I'll stick with the mantra of 1-3 forms is all one would ever need. That's with the caveat that I don't compete and what I teach is squarely on the martial side of the arts.
skribs
Grandmaster
Both TKD schools I've been at have had a LOT of forms. The one I'm at now has 13 forms before Black Belt, and the one I was at before had I think 8 forms (maybe more, this was like 20 years ago) and had 25+ "exercises" which were basically mini-forms. I say this because my experience has been that an art that uses forms will have basic forms at the earlier belts and then increase the difficulty, to include more difficult stances and more complicated movements.
I'm curious what would be the application of only having a few forms, say 1-3 forms? And if you only have 3 forms, why have forms at all?
I hope my tone comes across as inquisitive. I mean do disrespect and I'm not trying to be sarcastic. This approach is different than what I'm familiar with and I would genuinely like to know why you take it.
I'm curious what would be the application of only having a few forms, say 1-3 forms? And if you only have 3 forms, why have forms at all?
I hope my tone comes across as inquisitive. I mean do disrespect and I'm not trying to be sarcastic. This approach is different than what I'm familiar with and I would genuinely like to know why you take it.
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TrueJim
Master Black Belt
Kukkiwon refers to the new "senior" forms as being color-belt forms. I wonder if this means that seniors will be able to test for 1st dan by knowing only the new forms rather than the Taegeuk forms?
Why would you need more? One could train just Pinan Shodan for several years worth of material (strikes, throws, ground work etc). The entire Pinan series is a life time of training. It's been a long while, but Uechi Kanbun Sensei once commented that either Sanseirui or Seisan is all one would need to study to know karate.
The bulk of martial arts such as TKD and Karate use far too many forms/kata as class fillers and requirements to reach the next colored belt. It wasn't that way originally and has only existed in that manner for less than 100 years. Going back to Pinan Shodan, just the opening movement provides a locking principle and technique, a take down, ground work and more. Just the opening movement! In order to train this way a form needs to be seen as more than just a collection of blocks, strikes and kicks. Particularly since what many/ most consider blocks...aren't blocks at all.
My art has only one kata broken into five sections. To truly know that one kata is to fully know and understand my art. Nothing else is needed. We don't need class fillers or yet another collection of the same punches and kicks in a different pattern for a belt test.
To be honest, I could teach what many/most consider line drills i.e. the horse stance with all the punches and kicks and so forth for a year. Within those line drills are of course strikes and kicks but also covers and escapes and balance displacement and joint locks and throws and ground work and all sorts of other principles.
Without any intention to pat myself on the back or stroke my own ego, the highest compliment I've received was from a visiting black belt from a local school dropping in at the invitation of one of my assistance. He watched a yellow belt class and was floored, honestly telling my assistant that my yellow belts were at a higher level than his schools black belts in terms of the material presented and how they performed. Very proud of that compliment.
Keep in mind that the sole focus of my school was self defense and the bulk of our students have generally been high liability professionals i.e. law enforcement, corrections, security, E.P. agents, Coast Guard and bailiffs. The private citizens we've taught received the same training.
Finlay
Green Belt
Are these new forms purely performance pieces?
If not, what is the purpose of them?
When I was younger I was worried about knowing enough forms. Now a little older I have realised that (depending on your goals) depth of knowledge is more important
What I current teach has no forms only partner practice as 'live' as the student can handle. I have some guys from kata/form based arts. Took a while for them to break out of the mindset of needing fixed solo practice.
I also know of a quite famous taiji and bagua practitioner who basically goes to Beijing each year to lean a new form to fill up his curriculum
I am not against forms but I am against 'empty' forms and I think Masters do a disservice to their students and their art to continually make new forms
If not, what is the purpose of them?
When I was younger I was worried about knowing enough forms. Now a little older I have realised that (depending on your goals) depth of knowledge is more important
What I current teach has no forms only partner practice as 'live' as the student can handle. I have some guys from kata/form based arts. Took a while for them to break out of the mindset of needing fixed solo practice.
I also know of a quite famous taiji and bagua practitioner who basically goes to Beijing each year to lean a new form to fill up his curriculum
I am not against forms but I am against 'empty' forms and I think Masters do a disservice to their students and their art to continually make new forms
Bingo. As I mentioned, just one form could fill many years of valuable training in all aspects of an art i.e. striking, kicking, joint locks, throws, cavity pressing, escapes etc.
Strongly agree. Though to be fair it isn't totally their fault. One can only teach what they in turn have been taught unless they really go above and beyond to stretch above and beyond the art.
skribs
Grandmaster
Why would you need more? Well, let's break down the first four forms you learn at my school:
Our first form features exclusively blocks and punches, but lays the groundwork for the next several forms. Many of our students pick up the form real fast, but many do not. Those who have a real hard time with it include young kids (usually in the 4-8 year old range) and adults who haven't done much in the way of fine body control. Those who have done dancing, previously done martial arts, etc. usually pick it up quick, but just to have basic footwork is tough for a lot of people.
Our next two forms both expand on the first form, adding different techniques to each form. Form 2 adds in kicks to be worked into the hand techniques, and form 3 adds in breaks in the repetition. Form 4 combines Forms 2 and 3 to bring it all together. Form 4 is the form that makes the most sense, as it pertains to practical applications, but without forms 1-3 most of our students would have a significant amount of trouble with Form 4.
We also don't expect our students to memorize every single form, but sort of do a brain flush at a few key intervals. Once students have passed the 5 basic forms, they start the advanced forms and aren't tested on the previous ones, as the forms build on each other. Until black belt, students only need a maximum of 5 forms (most times only 1-3) that they are working on for their current belt. The exception is of course me, as I was on the path to be an instructor so I needed to retain everything.
Our forms work like all our other techniques: you learn simple stuff at lower belts and more advanced stuff at higher belts. The muscle memory, the understanding of the stances and the techniques, and simply the brain's ability to process all of the information needed to properly do the form all increase as students train, and so we can introduce more complex forms. In some cases, maybe the techniques are just flashy and the movements are more of a dance than a martial discipline, but forms really help strengthen the muscles we need to use.
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I'd like to see your form and how it works. I understand non-form martial arts (which our hapkido is) and martial arts built around forms (which both Taekwondo schools I've been in have been), but I don't have much knowledge or experience of single form arts. Do different belts learn different sections in the kata?
I will echo the sentiment of both you and Finlay: forms for the sake of forms don't make much sense. It's probably just that someone high ranking wants to put his spin on things, which means a redo of the curriculum.
Our first form features exclusively blocks and punches, but lays the groundwork for the next several forms. Many of our students pick up the form real fast, but many do not. Those who have a real hard time with it include young kids (usually in the 4-8 year old range) and adults who haven't done much in the way of fine body control. Those who have done dancing, previously done martial arts, etc. usually pick it up quick, but just to have basic footwork is tough for a lot of people.
Our next two forms both expand on the first form, adding different techniques to each form. Form 2 adds in kicks to be worked into the hand techniques, and form 3 adds in breaks in the repetition. Form 4 combines Forms 2 and 3 to bring it all together. Form 4 is the form that makes the most sense, as it pertains to practical applications, but without forms 1-3 most of our students would have a significant amount of trouble with Form 4.
We also don't expect our students to memorize every single form, but sort of do a brain flush at a few key intervals. Once students have passed the 5 basic forms, they start the advanced forms and aren't tested on the previous ones, as the forms build on each other. Until black belt, students only need a maximum of 5 forms (most times only 1-3) that they are working on for their current belt. The exception is of course me, as I was on the path to be an instructor so I needed to retain everything.
Our forms work like all our other techniques: you learn simple stuff at lower belts and more advanced stuff at higher belts. The muscle memory, the understanding of the stances and the techniques, and simply the brain's ability to process all of the information needed to properly do the form all increase as students train, and so we can introduce more complex forms. In some cases, maybe the techniques are just flashy and the movements are more of a dance than a martial discipline, but forms really help strengthen the muscles we need to use.
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I'd like to see your form and how it works. I understand non-form martial arts (which our hapkido is) and martial arts built around forms (which both Taekwondo schools I've been in have been), but I don't have much knowledge or experience of single form arts. Do different belts learn different sections in the kata?
I will echo the sentiment of both you and Finlay: forms for the sake of forms don't make much sense. It's probably just that someone high ranking wants to put his spin on things, which means a redo of the curriculum.
I can show you some works in progress. They in no way fully relay the meat of what we teach but it's the best that can be done with this sort of medium. It offers a tip of the iceberg view of what/how we teach and was meant as a refresher and points for class discussion.
Line drills: Advanced applications to basic line drills
Kata: Mu Shin Shodan Kata & applications w/Videos
Bear in mind that these videos were shot shortly after I had heart surgery so I'm not at my peak by any stretch of the imagination. Also my partner was my son who wanted to help out. He's now taller than me!
skribs
Grandmaster
Based on those videos, I'd make the argument you have 5 forms, unless you routinely practice the 5 movements in sequence.
I'd also say they aren't forms as much as they are one-step or two-step drills, at least if you're going to make an analogy to Taekwondo (or at least the Taekwondo at the schools I have learned). At our school we have different defense skills we learn, such as punch defense, kick defense, hand grabs, body grabs, etc. Most follow a simple philosophy of defend, control, and counter-attack.
Of course, this is my interpretation from the videos I saw, and not having taken your classes. I'm also just quibbling over terminology, not effectiveness. The techniques you demonstrate are certainly effective.
I'd also say they aren't forms as much as they are one-step or two-step drills, at least if you're going to make an analogy to Taekwondo (or at least the Taekwondo at the schools I have learned). At our school we have different defense skills we learn, such as punch defense, kick defense, hand grabs, body grabs, etc. Most follow a simple philosophy of defend, control, and counter-attack.
Of course, this is my interpretation from the videos I saw, and not having taken your classes. I'm also just quibbling over terminology, not effectiveness. The techniques you demonstrate are certainly effective.
Just the one form with the video breaking it down into bit-sized segments. Full disclosure, I didn't demonstrate the whole kata at that time as one fluid sequence because honestly I didn't have the stamina to do so. Even making those short clips wore me completely out and in some spots I was struggling and out of breath. But I needed to put at least something on video for the class. It is a project I'd like to revisit now that it's years later and I've fully recovered. That way I can put more meat and substance into the demonstration. It would be fun to do it again with my son as, like I mentioned, he's now taller than me and quite proud of the fact
Thank you. Everything demonstrated has either been used by me in realworld violent altercations or one of my partners who are also active/retired L.E. or Corrections. No fluff. Nothing fancy. And generally stupid-simple which is really what you need in a violent altercation.
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TrueJim
Master Black Belt
Oh my aching head...
I frame-by-framed my way through the Kukkiwon video for the new Bigak, one of Kukkiwon's new Competition Poomsae, which WT is apparently calling Bigak Ee Jang. This is what I came up with:
Notwithstanding the fact that without written instructions for the poomsae, I'm doubtless introducing many errors of my own -- I think the WT's version of the poomsae is also somewhat different from this, especially on the first line of the form.
Oh for some proper written instructions. Bigak
I frame-by-framed my way through the Kukkiwon video for the new Bigak, one of Kukkiwon's new Competition Poomsae, which WT is apparently calling Bigak Ee Jang. This is what I came up with:
Notwithstanding the fact that without written instructions for the poomsae, I'm doubtless introducing many errors of my own -- I think the WT's version of the poomsae is also somewhat different from this, especially on the first line of the form.
Oh for some proper written instructions. Bigak
skribs
Grandmaster
A few questions:
1) Are they really trying to put in different forms for different age groups? That means instructors will have to learn how many different forms to teach all the different age groups?
2) What belt level is this for, what with the 540 kicks and all? (Aside from me, at my school we have only 2-3 people who can do a 540 roundhouse and 1 who can do 540 hook, and no student aside from me can do both)
3) How do you make that frame-by-frame?
1) Are they really trying to put in different forms for different age groups? That means instructors will have to learn how many different forms to teach all the different age groups?
2) What belt level is this for, what with the 540 kicks and all? (Aside from me, at my school we have only 2-3 people who can do a 540 roundhouse and 1 who can do 540 hook, and no student aside from me can do both)
3) How do you make that frame-by-frame?
