What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?

[JowGaWolf]

I don't know what Mexican Style Boxing is.

Many of these styles are based on cultural differences e.g. Mexican is pure "machismo" (chauvinism) in terms that as a man you should be facing your opponent head-on, not "running" (dodging).

I've never referred to this as "Mexican Style Boxing." This was always "Machismo" to me because all of Latin America is like that. Mexican boxers were just closer to the U.S. border and close to the Boxing world when it was on top.

The "Machismo" culture doesn't care if they destroy you or not. Their main goal is to show how tough they are and they do it either by taking a lot of punches or pounding someone. A guy can be Machismo even if he loses and gets his face pounded. If he looses but doesn't get K.O. then he would be considered as "Machismo".

Most martial arts don't care about being Machismo. Most martial arts are all about being "cruel in battle." Arm breaks, leg breaks, finger breaks, knife fighting etc. are all acceptable This is why I don't like how some people train martial arts and try to be like a peaceful monk. It's the opposite of what Martial Art applications strive for.

 

[_Simon_]

Hey Gerry, I've been on this forum long enough to know that Jobo can be abrasive in his posts and frequently declines to do anything to elaborate or sell others on his ideas, but I agree with his views on fitness far more often than I disagree. I can say from personal experience training myself and a lot of other people that 5 minutes of high intensity work 2x/week is sufficient time to make huge improvements to fitness and tremendous gains in strength, though my primary workouts are more like 7 minutes 1x/week. I don't currently have the experience to feel confident training people at that level of intensity without more equipment than the usual martial arts studio has space for but I have no doubt that others can do it.

I think there are (at least) 2 primary roadblocks to clear communication around this topic:

1. Our definitions of "fitness". I don't know what you consider fit, but a lot of people who actually work out (not to imply that you don't!) seem to really focus on endurance, how long one can continue with physical exertion, as their primary metric and then maybe body composition as a secondary metric and frequently impact on health as a tertiary measurement - strength may or may not even be on the list. I've got 2 main metrics, 1) How do your structural and metabolic adaptations enable or inhibit your ability to perform your desired activities? 2) How do your structural and metabolic adaptations improve or degrade your health? So, if an exercise program supports these 2 requirements well then I would deem it to be an effective fitness routine.
   
   For example, I have no interest in running a 10k or anything longer so I don't train for that and wouldn't be very good at it if I had to go run one right now. If someone else is really invested in distance running they may think I'm terribly unfit and more relevant to this conversation, would be correct (by their definition) in stating that there is no way I could be fit without putting in at least a couple of hours a week spent on running. If their definition of fit was being able to go all out fighting for their life for 30-180 seconds without getting winded until after the conflict was resolved (the definition that more closely matches this thread) then 5 minutes 2x/week of true high intensity work is going to be both more efficient and vastly superior to running for a few hours several days a week.
   
   
2. Our definitions of high intensity. A lot of people think high intensity, they think really working up a sweat, or maybe doing reps until they're really feeling an intense burn. I mean working as hard as you can without rest until you physically can't do anything but carefully walk afterwards. If you have the skill and the grit to do this it won't take more than 10 minutes and if you focus on nothing but big, compound movements it won't take more than 5. Some people will say, "Oh, I can work that hard for 30 minutes". No, they are holding back a lot, or they're taking big breaks, if they can do it for 30 minutes. As just 2 examples, I've had both a professional cyclist in his 20's and a newly promoted BJJ black belt need to lie down on the floor and try not to vomit after a 7 minute (total, start to finish) workout. That level of work produces a tremendous adaptive response and isn't maintainable at a frequency of much more than 1x/per week for a lot of people, 2x is definitely plenty.

So, I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I'm also not willing to concede that you are right. I'm saying that we may have different fitness goals and that you may not understand what kind of training I'm (and I think Jobo) are advocating.

Cheers!

Michael

EDIT to add: Relevant to this thread: I only offer private 1-on-1 instruction and I can't imagine training a group all at the same time to this level of intensity, so it could be a tough add for a full martial arts class.

Yep agreed. I do get annoyed when someone says they've got a "wicked 30 or 60 minute Tabata workout for you". No. Just no! If you are doing 30 minutes of Tabata protocol you are not doing it right at all XD. 4 minutes of work is..... brutal. I did these (in sprint form) when training for a grading and it felt like absolute death, could only manage it once a week I think!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Help the

- weak to fight against the strong,
- good to fight against the evil,
- ...

is more than honest.

Yeah, but that's not what you framed in that post. You created a deliberate strawman that some places teach "always give in" while others teach to fight back to protect.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

thats the program, i didnt write it, a conditioning coach did, if your doing max effort you can only do a few, thats biology

I'm guessing you've picked up a tiny portion of someone's training program.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

here try this and tell ne its not enough

Um, that's a workout for a specific muscle group. Even says so in the title.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no thats a holiday, im not aware there is a world record for holidays?

Man, I'd love to try to break that record, whatever it is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

get a high desk so you can stand

They also make devices you can put on the desk that elevate the monitor and keyboard/mouse, so you can switch back and forth pretty easily.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've never been flexible and that was true when I was 23 and waiting tables and walking all night for a living. When I started working in IT in my late 20's it got so much harder.

Same for me. Even when I was training 20+ hours a week, my lower body wasn't very flexible.

 

[jobo]

Um, that's a workout for a specific muscle group. Even says so in the title.

yes i know, then you hit other muscle groups a different day, its a pushibg exercis3 , ive move my hand postion slightly to take some off the tri and move it to the shoukders, but it works most muscles in your body to some extent, even you biceps

have you tried it yet and tell me 6 mins isnt enough

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hey Gerry, I've been on this forum long enough to know that Jobo can be abrasive in his posts and frequently declines to do anything to elaborate or sell others on his ideas, but I agree with his views on fitness far more often than I disagree. I can say from personal experience training myself and a lot of other people that 5 minutes of high intensity work 2x/week is sufficient time to make huge improvements to fitness and tremendous gains in strength, though my primary workouts are more like 7 minutes 1x/week. I don't currently have the experience to feel confident training people at that level of intensity without more equipment than the usual martial arts studio has space for but I have no doubt that others can do it.

I think there are (at least) 2 primary roadblocks to clear communication around this topic:

1. Our definitions of "fitness". I don't know what you consider fit, but a lot of people who actually work out (not to imply that you don't!) seem to really focus on endurance, how long one can continue with physical exertion, as their primary metric and then maybe body composition as a secondary metric and frequently impact on health as a tertiary measurement - strength may or may not even be on the list. I've got 2 main metrics, 1) How do your structural and metabolic adaptations enable or inhibit your ability to perform your desired activities? 2) How do your structural and metabolic adaptations improve or degrade your health? So, if an exercise program supports these 2 requirements well then I would deem it to be an effective fitness routine.
   
   For example, I have no interest in running a 10k or anything longer so I don't train for that and wouldn't be very good at it if I had to go run one right now. If someone else is really invested in distance running they may think I'm terribly unfit and more relevant to this conversation, would be correct (by their definition) in stating that there is no way I could be fit without putting in at least a couple of hours a week spent on running. If their definition of fit was being able to go all out fighting for their life for 30-180 seconds without getting winded until after the conflict was resolved (the definition that more closely matches this thread) then 5 minutes 2x/week of true high intensity work is going to be both more efficient and vastly superior to running for a few hours several days a week.
   
   
2. Our definitions of high intensity. A lot of people think high intensity, they think really working up a sweat, or maybe doing reps until they're really feeling an intense burn. I mean working as hard as you can without rest until you physically can't do anything but carefully walk afterwards. If you have the skill and the grit to do this it won't take more than 10 minutes and if you focus on nothing but big, compound movements it won't take more than 5. Some people will say, "Oh, I can work that hard for 30 minutes". No, they are holding back a lot, or they're taking big breaks, if they can do it for 30 minutes. As just 2 examples, I've had both a professional cyclist in his 20's and a newly promoted BJJ black belt need to lie down on the floor and try not to vomit after a 7 minute (total, start to finish) workout. That level of work produces a tremendous adaptive response and isn't maintainable at a frequency of much more than 1x/per week for a lot of people, 2x is definitely plenty.

So, I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I'm also not willing to concede that you are right. I'm saying that we may have different fitness goals and that you may not understand what kind of training I'm (and I think Jobo) are advocating.

Cheers!

Michael

EDIT to add: Relevant to this thread: I only offer private 1-on-1 instruction and I can't imagine training a group all at the same time to this level of intensity, so it could be a tough add for a full martial arts class.

Perhaps with the right equipment. I have some workouts that don't take much more than 5 minutes that do a good job (I still doubt twice a week for just 5 minutes is sufficient), but they all need something. Kettlebells, pull-up bars, ropes attached to fixed points, or some such. None of that is feasible in a group setting at a dojo without spending a lot of money or stretching the time out by having folks share equipment/stations. Remember that's where this all started.

If someone is sedentary, a couple of short workouts a week will make a big improvement. But not the kind that was suggested in his earlier post. Getting someone into some kind of fighting shape takes time. Trying to do it within the warmup period of a class they attend twice a week won't get most people there, and those few it would work for (who are already fit and need to step it up) will take a long time to get there. Traininng fitness outside of class is the fix, but isn't within the instructor's control.

Having time to get some specific fitness and strength training in is part of the reason I haven't followed the trend of shortening classes to 1 hour. That seems to be where a lot of folks have trimmed the classes.

 

[jobo]

Perhaps with the right equipment. I have some workouts that don't take much more than 5 minutes that do a good job (I still doubt twice a week for just 5 minutes is sufficient), but they all need something. Kettlebells, pull-up bars, ropes attached to fixed points, or some such. None of that is feasible in a group setting at a dojo without spending a lot of money or stretching the time out by having folks share equipment/stations. Remember that's where this all started.

If someone is sedentary, a couple of short workouts a week will make a big improvement. But not the kind that was suggested in his earlier post. Getting someone into some kind of fighting shape takes time. Trying to do it within the warmup period of a class they attend twice a week won't get most people there, and those few it would work for (who are already fit and need to step it up) will take a long time to get there. Traininng fitness outside of class is the fix, but isn't within the instructor's control.

Having time to get some specific fitness and strength training in is part of the reason I haven't followed the trend of shortening classes to 1 hour. That seems to be where a lot of folks have trimmed the classes.

no you really dont need equipment, im not saying it isnt convienient, but not at all a requirment,

 

[jobo]

Perhaps with the right equipment. I have some workouts that don't take much more than 5 minutes that do a good job (I still doubt twice a week for just 5 minutes is sufficient), but they all need something. Kettlebells, pull-up bars, ropes attached to fixed points, or some such. None of that is feasible in a group setting at a dojo without spending a lot of money or stretching the time out by having folks share equipment/stations. Remember that's where this all started.

If someone is sedentary, a couple of short workouts a week will make a big improvement. But not the kind that was suggested in his earlier post. Getting someone into some kind of fighting shape takes time. Trying to do it within the warmup period of a class they attend twice a week won't get most people there, and those few it would work for (who are already fit and need to step it up) will take a long time to get there. Traininng fitness outside of class is the fix, but isn't within the instructor's control.

Having time to get some specific fitness and strength training in is part of the reason I haven't followed the trend of shortening classes to 1 hour. That seems to be where a lot of folks have trimmed the classes.

and its not a warm up exercise its a muscle screaming when youve finished exercise, if you take say your unfit guy, work him for 5 mins and progesovly turn the intensity up over a few months he will continue to get fitter and fitter for 5 mins duration, with out any reachable upper limit

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What?!?!? there's a funny Jobo too?

Always has been. I like him even more than serious jobo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Most people like to take fitness training before MA training. I like to decide which MA ability that I want to develop first. I then find a equipment training that can help me.

I want to develop strong grip -> I then find a equipment training that can help me.

I want to develop powerful foot sweep -> I then find a equipment training that can help me.

My experience has been that powerful grips can be developed by just doing a lot of grappling.

 

[jobo]

My experience has been that powerful grips can be developed by just doing a lot of grappling.

or by pull ups, or by trying to rip a towl in half

or perhaps best doing pull up off a towl

 

[stanly stud]

this is a luxury machine @ the start

most hang a judo Gi over a pull up bar grip it & chin. about 2:50

 

[jobo]

Yep agreed. I do get annoyed when someone says they've got a "wicked 30 or 60 minute Tabata workout for you". No. Just no! If you are doing 30 minutes of Tabata protocol you are not doing it right at all XD. 4 minutes of work is..... brutal. I did these (in sprint form) when training for a grading and it felt like absolute death, could only manage it once a week I think!

people it seems have a problem accepting that shorter high intensity is better( for somethings) and also have a problem putting in the amount of effort required to actually make it high intensity

between the two, they alter the exercise to fit there preconception and as they are doing 30 m instead of three turn down the intensity considerably, to totally inadequate

and then say," that didnt work" well no, youve been doing something else entirely, of course it didnt work

 

[stanly stud]

people it seems have a problem accepting that shorter high intensity is better( for somethings) and also have a problem putting in the amount of effort required to actually make it high intensity

between the two, they alter the exercise to fit there preconception and as they are doing 30 m instead of three turn down the intensity considerably, to totally inadequate

and then say," that didnt work" well no, youve been doing something else entirely, of course it didnt work

so all other training other than 5-10 mins(or even 4mins) 1x a week is not so efficient or as productive... for athletes or martial arts?
If this was the case why are athletes not solely relying on this training?

 

[stanly stud]

or could it be a case of HIT or HIIT training is just another tool in the Box?
just one method of many used in a good all round training programme?

 

[jobo]

so all other training other than 5-10 mins(or even 4mins) 1x a week is not so efficient or as productive... for athletes or martial arts?
If this was the case why are athletes not solely relying on this training?

well no, that really not what i said, in fact i wrote you a post on the topic one thread or another that intensity duration need to be tied to the performance your trying to develop

there are possibly some, a few ,where what you are doing is by far the best type of work out, there are also time constaints on people, like in this example where you only have a few mins out of an hour class so you have to make the best use out of it

my traing is devepoled towards performance rather than asthetics, in this particular instance the ability to go flat out for around the 5 min mark, which requires you to go flat out for about 5 mins, if your doing 10 mins, your not flat out ,if your doing thirty mins your not trying at all hard, if you havibg rest pauses every min ir so, then that isnt the training which i want, which just to be clear is the ability to go flat out for 5 mins with out rest pauses, as that tends to be what fights and quite a few other emergency situations require